Learning scales

[JoeWPgh]

Good gawd, Chad. Haven't you embarrassed your self enough?

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Joe when u say scales r your friends I hear Carol Kaye, Pat Metheny, and every Jazz great laughing their heads off.

You,ve got tremendous hearing. None of us can achieve that kind of magic here.

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Here is a question....how many musicians here even know how to play all the chord tone arpeggios?

it seems like you don't know it yourself since you couldn't answer my question properly.

May be music is just a big gymnastic routine for you after all from the way you talk about how good you are at finding the CT, no all the CT over the neck

You still have no valuable arguments to make the whole world forget about scales!

Write a book, do like me and may be you'll be in the next top-sellers at bassbooks!

[chadgrimes]

Groove I know all my Chord Tone arpeggios and as far as any Great Jazz player on the circuit, they would tell you that SCALES are the WRONG things to be teaching students. You need to focus on Chord Tone arpeggios. Watch the Pat Metheny video, WATCH the Carol Kaye video. Look at jazz players hands like Wes Montgomery and Bassist Brown and Carter and Chambers, they are playing music around the Chord Tone arpeggios. There hands move from head to body of their instrument and NOT in some STATIONARY SCALE position that only addresses the I major. Don't believe me ASK THEM! Groove I am serious when I say, tell me your University and I will come and give a friendly seminar. Im serious about that.

[chadgrimes]

Here is an example of what students on the bass should learn. Disregard some of the TAB. I dont agree with some of it.
The url shows the G major CHORD TONE arpeggios in the different inversions.
You should learn all of the chord tone arpeggios just like this one
http://bassmusicianmagazine.com/wp-c...-maj-dec09.jpg

[Febs]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Groove I know all my Chord Tone arpeggios and as far as any Great Jazz player on the circuit, they would tell you that SCALES are the WRONG things to be teaching students. You need to focus on Chord Tone arpeggios. Watch the Pat Metheny video, WATCH the Carol Kaye video. Look at jazz players hands like Wes Montgomery and Bassist Brown and Carter and Chambers, they are playing music around the Chord Tone arpeggios. There hands move from head to body of their instrument and NOT in some STATIONARY SCALE position that only addresses the I major. Don't believe me ASK THEM! Groove I am serious when I say, tell me your University and I will come and give a friendly seminar. Im serious about that.

Why do you keep insisting that scales can only be played in one position?

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Groove I know all my Chord Tone arpeggios and as far as any Great Jazz player on the circuit, they would tell you that SCALES are the WRONG things to be teaching students. You need to focus on Chord Tone arpeggios. Watch the Pat Metheny video, WATCH the Carol Kaye video. Look at jazz players hands like Wes Montgomery and Bassist Brown and Carter and Chambers, they are playing music around the Chord Tone arpeggios. There hands move from head to body of their instrument and NOT in some STATIONARY SCALE position that only addresses the I major. Don't believe me ASK THEM! Groove I am serious when I say, tell me your University and I will come and give a friendly seminar. Im serious about that.

Sincerely, I cannot have a lunatic coming into my classes claiming his got the new approach of teaching music that excludes and turn down something I'm proud of teaching myself and all music educators do too.

Write a book or post a video, then you will make thousands of fans all around the world.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Febs

Why do you keep insisting that scales can only be played in one position?

Exactly!

If chord-tones can be played all over the neck, the same goes with scales isn't it?

[sgiacomo]

Oh oh oh, I got it guys, I got it:
In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

God bless jostego, only been a member for seven days (five days more than this grimes cat) and has already has been trolled. Is that a record?

[kirkdickinson]

So do you think this guy sucks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUi2qSQ_6JI

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by sgiacomo

Oh oh oh, I got it guys, I got it:
In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

God bless jostego, only been a member for seven days (five days more than this grimes cat) and has already has been trolled. Is that a record?

Do you think it is JB?
May be we should start a topic on scales and metronome!!!

[jchrisk1]

Didn't we have a chord tone thread like this a few years ago?

[jchrisk1]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

Do you think it is JB?
May be we should start a topic on scales and metronome!!!

That's what I was thinking, but this guy doesn't seem as intelligent as JB.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by jchrisk1

That's what I was thinking, but this guy doesn't seem as intelligent as JB.

yeah I know what you mean. JB is a great bass player and musician.

But the stubbornness is heavily identical!!

[sgiacomo]

Funny thing is I am wearing a Joe Bonamassa t-shirt in my avatar so the JB reference was a head scratcher for a few seconds, like how could you guys tell?!?!? Sorry I missed that last thread, well not really but all in all this place is awesome!

[chadgrimes]

First let me humbly say that I DID NOT INVENT some NEW system. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Please note that I did NOT invent some new system. This chord Tone arpeggio way of playing is how the OLD CATS use to play and the great ones still do. I did not invent this. Please try and understand that almost all of the jazz greats were NOT college educated. They did not learn fancy scales when playing Jazz. They played and understood EVERYTHING around the chord tone arpeggios. Scales have come into play just like what Carol Kaye said in her video, by ROCK players who just didn't know any better. No one in the 40s and 50s played scales and yet players in their quest to understand Carter, Brown, Chambers, and the whole entire gang, got caught up by teachers drilling scales. Im sorry if it offends any of you and as far as Im concern I cant convince you. I will still offer myself as a guest speaker Groove and I even stated earlier that I would love it to be friendly. You have to admit that, and I promise I would not do anything to disrespect you or the University. I would approach the seminar in a friendly way and just discuss the way I approach playing around the chord tone arpeggios like the same way all the jazz greats do. If your UNiversity is close.

[the_stone]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

I said that THEORISTS will add up all the notes and slap a name of a scale.

I know I'm going to regret jumping back into this mess, but chadgrimes, how is adding up all the notes and slapping the name of a scale on them different and better than what you seem to advocate, which is adding up all the notes and slapping the name of an arpeggio on them?

I'll probably sound like a conceited a** saying this, but here goes: I have a bachelor's in jazz performance, music theory minor, a master's in musicology with a specialization in the history of music theory, and a 15+ year career as a working professional musician - and the things you are saying in this thread run counter to every legitimate, proven method of learning music, whether you want to be a classroom academic or on-stage stone-cold touring professional.

If the OP is still bothering to read this, please listen to the multiple people on here posting sense - learn MUSIC in all its forms.

[chadgrimes]

Stone... fair question. Let me state it again. It is how u PERCEIVE the phrase.
Sometimes its better to look at a guitar solo to analyze what I am saying. Lets take HOT for Teacher by Van Halen. Think of the solo in that song. We see Eddie's hands moving all over the neck of the guitar from HEAD to BODY of guitar. What you do not realize is that Eddie is NOT perceiving scales he is using his basic knowledge of the CHORD TONE arpeggios. Another words Eddie sees the chords and he sees the OUTLINE of the chord shapes and he knows CHord tones which is stable and non chords around the chord tone arpeggios as unstable to create the tension and then resolves notes back to the chord tones. What theorists will do is.. ADD UP ALL THE NOTES all over the neck and then teach students... IF WE just play a SCALE we could get all those notes and keep our hands in ONE position. So the theorists might discover Eddie is playing a C scale and teach the student C D E F G A B , C scale and then tell them that because the song is in C major or what ever the key is, that the C major scale will work. The problem with that is C is going to be heard differently over the F chord verses the C and there is NO C note in the G chord. So students who learn a MAJOR IONIAN scale think that all the notes will work over any diatonic chord to the key. TOO MUCH THINKING and NOT the way the pros do it. Also if it is a JAZZ tune, there is NO WAY a person who believes in scales are going to react quick enough to compensate for ALLLLL of the borrowed chords. This is why very few players can solo on the spot without pre planning their solos. However, if u understand your chord tone arpeggios u just move to that location of the chord and play there. It is a BIG difference because I see CHORD shapes and NOT scale patterns. Let me see if I can approach it another way. Think of a Bass line that went G note..then.. D..under a G chord and then an A note and then E note under an A Chord and then a D note and then A note under a D chord. Now... a scale person teacher will teach students that u can get all of these notes in first position on the bass. I sat in on a jazz band class and the tempo to this tune i never heard before was really really fast. And this kid said to me I cant make these changes. I said simply why? its just ROOT and FIVES. What the kid was trying to do was make all of these ROOT and FIVES in FIRST position because he was reading around the G scale. Play those notes I just stated on the bass in First position and set your tempo on the met to something really fast. Now look at your hands.. they are not consistent in first position. Now drop scales and play the G and D notes with Pointer finger on the 4th string third fret and the D note with ring finger on 3rd string 5th fret and then slide your pointer finger to the 4th string 5th fret for the A of the next chord and then ring finger on the 3rd string 7th fret. Then for the D chord move your pointer to the 3rd string 5th fret and your ring finger to the second string 7th fret.See what is happening? You are using nothing but your POINTER and RING fingers to get the ROOT and FIVES of EACH CHORD and moving the phrase with the CHORD instead of the Scale. Chord tone arpeggios are consistent with the CHORD movement and your hands always know where the ROOT, 3rds, 5ths, and 7ths, are. Teaching a kid a scale makes the notes look inconsistent per different chord. Because the C is a ROOT under a C chord but the FIFTH under the F chord. The old cats play around the chords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9idtdWAAEA go to 2:50 in the video.

[sgiacomo]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

This chord Tone arpeggio way of playing is how the OLD CATS use to play and the great ones still do. I did not invent this. Please try and understand that almost all of the jazz greats were NOT college educated.

OP asked about scales, right Chad Grimes? https://www.facebook.com/chad.grimes3
Super cool white falcon assuming that's you! And you are college educated so please enlighten us…
How much have you taught the OP and this community about the thread topic? Moreover, do ya think the antagonistic, ALL CAPS, hair-splitting communication helps the fine musicians you claim to educate? Does the Bowie song The Man Who Sold the World have scales in the chorus? Ya got kinda quiet on that topic after calling me out so I am inclined to think you either missed it or more than likely are the type of person who is never wrong. I am curious about your modus operandi here and still hoping to get edumakated. Those who don't listen cannot learn, goes both ways my friend.

[chadgrimes]

Wow Sgiacomo u are a stalker. LOL. Yes That is me and I told everyone already of my credentials. I dont hide them. Plus I never hide behind fake names and alias. Now forget me for a moment and let me just post some good old vids for u guys. The first one is Mike Stern teaching Chord Tone arpeggios and the second is an audio of Pat Metheny. Listen very carefully to all of BOTH vids. Try and grasp what they are teaching. Pat will talk about how scale guys always FLOAT above the harmony because they DONT understand Chord tones and where they sit. Mike Stern will flat out teach u how to do chord tone arpeggios. The third is Jeff Richmond teaching chord tone arpeggios. Jeff, the third video really does a great job of teaching. Watch that one closely! You will see Jeff mention a short segment on a scale but like Carol said, they are just TRANSITIONING notes. THe last video talks about how we got away from chord tone soloing. Last one is for us Bass players. JEFF disses scales. WATCH THE LAST VIDEO FIRST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id7bBoZuP-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SRmTRCpQHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TzEeDmgeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaMsYJ8u4TM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWovekz3i4k

Enjoy. And I do hope u all listen and learn!

P.S I cant always read all of the tons of floading of comments back. As far as the David Bowie tune goes the Intro and the Verse are 98 percent Chord Tones. I am looking at a google pic of the first page of music. Show me the chorus and I will analyze it. But like all of the millions of tunes I analyzed I dont see how the Chorus wouldnt be almost 98 percent chord tones!


GOOD NIGHT TIME FOR BED!

[elgecko]

This thread is freaking awesome. As good as anything in OT.