Learning scales

[sgiacomo]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Wow Sgiacomo u are a stalker. LOL. Yes That is me and I told everyone already of my credentials. I dont hide them. Plus I never hide behind fake names and alias. Now forget me for a moment and let me just post some good old vids for u guys. The first one is Mike Stern teaching Chord Tone arpeggios and the second is an audio of Pat Metheny. Listen very carefully to all of BOTH vids. Try and grasp what they are teaching. Pat will talk about how scale guys always FLOAT above the harmony because they DONT understand Chord tones and where they sit. Mike Stern will flat out teach u how to do chord tone arpeggios. The third is Jeff Richmond teaching chord tone arpeggios. Jeff, the third video really does a great job of teaching. Watch that one closely! You will see Jeff mention a short segment on a scale but like Carol said, they are just TRANSITIONING notes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id7bBoZuP-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SRmTRCpQHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TzEeDmgeA

Enjoy. And I do hope u all listen and learn!

P.S I cant always read all of the tons of floading of comments back. As far as the David Bowie tune goes the Intro and the Verse are 98 percent Chord Tones. I am looking at a google pic of the first page of music. Show me the chorus and I will analyze it. But like all of the millions of tunes I analyzed I dont see how the Chorus wouldnt be almost 98 percent chord tones!

Nah man I don't stalk just curious if you were that JB dude mentioned earlier. Happened to be catching up with friends on FB and your bass rig showed up as the second hit on a quick search, tech is cool like that and nice to put a face with the name. Shannon Giacomo here.

Anyhoo... Thanks for the videos, cool tunes. Despite them being guitar examples I think I understand a little better. It's like the chord tones (notes?) are played individually as opposed to all at the same time, in a single strum or chord? Scale notes seem complimentary or maybe just another perspective, that's what I hear but can't relate it in the right terminology. Although I went to university it wasn't for music so my ear is limited to playing experience and some basic theory during secondary education. My theory is really limited. Now that we have this cyber library of knowledge I try to spend some time here mostly watching, listening, and reading whatever good info I can locate like this scale question.

On the Bowie song, here's the Nirvana unlugged cover Youtube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fregObNcHC8 Unfortunately I don't have copyright-free sheet music. Perhaps you could tell by listening to the bass line accompanying the chorus? That is where it sounds like scales with the words:
Oh no, not me
We never lost control
You're face to face
With The Man Who Sold The World

[Febs]

Originally Posted by sgiacomo

Anyhoo... Thanks for the videos, cool tunes. Despite them being guitar examples I think I understand a little better. It's like the chord tones (notes?) are played individually as opposed to all at the same time, in a single strum or chord?

Right, an arpeggio is simply the notes of a chord played sequentially. (By definition, an arpeggio consists of chord tones, which is why Fergie commented earlier that chad's use of the term "chord tone arpeggio" is odd.)

Scale notes seem complimentary or maybe just another perspective, that's what I hear but can't relate it in the right terminology.

Correct. Take a C Major scale: C D E F G A B C. By simply omitting certain notes in the scale, you can play CMaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, FMaj7, G7, Amin7, and Bm7(b5) arpeggios using the C Major scale.

For example, here is a CMaj7 arpeggio:

C D E F G A B C

Here is a Dmin7 arpeggio:

C D E F G A B C

Here is a G7 arpeggio:

C D E F G A B C

Now let's take the notes of these arpeggios and combine them to come up with a pitch collection that one might play over a ii7 - V7 | I turnaround in a jazz song:

C D E F G A B C

Yes, it's the C Major scale.

This is why it is so silly for Chad to argue that playing arpeggios allows a player to play all over the neck, but that playing scales locks a player into a single position. Scales and chords are closely related. Just as you can play arpeggios all over the neck, you can also play scales all over the neck.

Chad does make some valid points. For example, he is correct that you can't just randomly play the notes of a scale over a particular chord and expect that every note of the scale will work equally well over the chord. As a general matter, an F does not work well over a C major chord, for example, because the F is very dissonant against the E in the chord. That doesn't mean that you can't play an F. You certainly can. You can use it as a passing tone, and you can use it to create tension. But if you are trying to create a bass line that outlines the harmony and defines the chord changes, it is not necessarily the best choice.

Unfortunately, the valid aspects of Chad's message are lost because he wraps them up in an extreme position that is at best poorly communicated and at worst flat-out wrong. His "scale person" -- this mythical creature who learns only major scales in a single position and then plays the notes of the major scale randomly against all of the chords -- is a straw man. No one here is advocating that that is a good approach to creating effective bass lines. The reason that Chad's "scale person" doesn't sound good is not because he learned to play scales, but because he didn't learn how to apply those scales. The solution to the problem is not to avoid learning scales, but rather to learn them as part of a balanced approach that also includes learning about the relationship between chords and scales.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

The third is Jeff Richmond teaching chord tone arpeggios. Jeff, the third video really does a great job of teaching. Watch that one closely! You will see Jeff mention a short segment on a scale but like Carol said, they are just TRANSITIONING notes.

And here is a companion video from Jeff Richmond where he takes a scale-based approach over the same tune, All the Things You Are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fAsZk99wo

In fact, he says at the end of this video, "again, as you can see, there is like, an infinite amount of things that you can do, just with this concept, major scales. There's always new things to discover and figure out, and it takes many years and I still thoroughly enjoy practicing this way."

Note also that Mr. Richmond clearly demonstrates that scales can be played in one position or across the neck.

[MarkMgibson]

"Chord tone arpeggios" - that's not even a proper musical term. Arpeggios are simply chords with the notes played in sequence, so saying "chord tone arpeggios" is completely redundant (what other sort of arpeggios are there except those made up of chord tones?). You, "Chad", keep rollicking on about the "real pros" and what they do, and then you just keep referring back to one 3 minute video. Bollocks. Tell me the "real pros" with whom you've played? I'd also like to know why you think you are so uniquely qualified to speak for all these "real pros"?

And if you're a music teacher, so is my dog. For God's sake, you can barely put together a coherent sentence, and are oblivious to the entire concept of paragraphs. Yet you claim to be a teacher. Any teacher I've ever know, has, as a minimum requirement, had to be able to communicate in English. How can you be a teacher when you have the writing skills of a 5 year old?

I have found your ravings quite entertaining thus far, but they're starting to bore me, as they have no melody (perhaps some study of scales would help in that regard).

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

Please try and understand that almost all of the jazz greats were NOT college educated.

Not having a college education is not the same thing as being uneducated.

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

They did not learn fancy scales when playing Jazz.

Did they just learn the plain ones?

Originally Posted by chadgrimes

They played and understood EVERYTHING around the chord tone arpeggios. No one in the 40s and 50s played scales and yet players in their quest to understand Carter, Brown, Chambers, and the whole entire gang, got caught up by teachers drilling scales.

I'm not sure where you got your misinformation, but if you read the biographies of ANY of the great players they all talk about practicing scales. EVERYONE played scales. If you've ever heard a walking bass line in jazz, you'll hear snippets of scales.

I'm not sure which is more astounding, the extent to which you are wrong about everything you post, or the fact that you don't get how wrong you are. Here's some good advice - when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.

[Schlyder]

"Not just arpeggios, I'm talking about CHORD TONE arpeggios in ALL INVERSIONS!" -chadgrimes

LOL... What????

[sgiacomo]

Thanks for the clarification. I was getting confused!

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

"Chord tone arpeggios" - I've never even heard that as a musical term. You, "Chad", keep rollicking on about the "real pros" and what they do, and then you just keep referring back to one 3 minute video. Bollocks. Tell me the "real pros" with whom you've played?

And if you're a music teacher, so is my dog (he can write better than you). For God's sake, you can barely put together a coherent sentence, and are oblivious to the entire concept of paragraphs. Yet you claim to be a teacher. Any teacher I've ever know, has, as a minimum requirement, had to be able to communicate in English. How can you be a teacher when you have the writing skills of a 5 year old?

I have found your ravings quite entertaining, but without any melody, I guess they're just "chord tone" ravings.

The thing is Mark, as Febs, Groove Master and other have pointed out, Chad takes a stance, and in his stance Chad fails to see a bigger picture, Chad does not realise that some of the people he is preaching to know more about it than he does. Chad makes general assumptions that many in-experienced players make, and then applies them to all players as the norm.

Now getting in each other face is pointless, the thread will become swamped and then closed. This subject. Like modes, can be looked at in the same way politics or religion is viewed (and why those to subjects are banned form being discussed on this form) because a persons beliefs need to be respected, not challenged.

The OP, remember them,from a single valid question must think he has opens a can of worms, but no, all that has happened is that Chad with his limited grasp on how to teach music has taken a very one-side position on education, that he cannot validate.

Chad does not answer the questions that are put to him, and how can he, Chad clearly does not have the skills or experience to do so, no matter what any web site or link says about him, or credentials he has, he is condemned by his own words and thinking.
Even when trying to help him and explain certain musical facts and ideas, Chad does not get it, Chad fails to understand a bigger picture of music, music that goes beyond simple pop songs, or any single genre

If anyone wants to understand more about Chord Tones go to Jeff Berlin.

http://youtu.be/NWovekz3i4k

Check out the other videos the link suggests as well.

Jeff has been talking about the dilution of music education, which is clearly Chads problem, but his article on Chord Tones, how to practice them and more, in his Bass Player Magazine column of the August 98 issue, ( a copy of I sill keep and e-mail to anyone interested in reading it, just PM me with an E-mail address to accept the attachment ) is great reading, and says in a few paragraphs and examples everything player need to work on the subject......then it becomes subjective in use, the player decides what happens in there use within music.
Chad fails to use the many many resources of great bassists and teachers explaining, teaching and demoing the chord tone idea, why Chad uses guitarists is beyond me when there are so many bass greats to choose from that will make the point clearer and better than any of the links posted.

But back to Chad, what you preach is not new, maybe new to you, but not new to musicians, and certainly not new to TB.
The good info you want to relay gets lost and swamped in your personal interpretation of it use and how you see it being used.
Music theory stands alone, it does not write songs, create melodies or harmony etc..
It is those that read it and interprete it that does that, not theory.

To see this in action follow this link

http://songreader.net/

What has happened here is that the artist Beck has released his latest album of songs as sheet music only.
It is up to the players, bands, artists, etc that buy it...to interpret it.
The songs are then able to be up-loaded to the link for all to hear how the interpreted the sheet music was defined, used, arranged, etc...the diversity of how it can be used is breath taking.....and that is music working at sits best with theory supporting ideas, not producing the ideas.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by sgiacomo

Thanks for the clarification. I was getting confused!

Not surprised.....I had to check this thread out again when I woke up to see if it was real....I thought for a moment I had dreamt it.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

Do you think it is JB?
May be we should start a topic on scales and metronome!!!

LOL the idea did cross my mind, but then some of the use of music ideas and terms that Chad uses kicked that idea into touch.....Jeff is a clever educated man.............

[sgiacomo]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Not surprised.....I had to check this thread out again when I woke up to see if it was real....I thought for a moment I had dreamt it.

Thanks Fergie. I feel less stupid now if that makes any sense!

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

"Not just arpeggios, I'm talking about CHORD TONE arpeggios in ALL INVERSIONS!" -chadgrimes

Who is taking that quote for sig??? LOL

[chadgrimes]

Good morning gentlemen, i had some time to read closely on some of your posts. Let me start off right away by saying..sorry... For ruffling any feathers. My intention is to teach some things I know and not make enemies. I'm glad some of u are watching the vids and making some sense of what I am trying to say. Social media makes it difficult instead of face to face. I'm sorry for capping some things, I do it when I want to emphasize something and can't find the bold button. I think this is going to be the last comment on this thread because I don't feel like I'm helping rather than ruffling feathers. I hope the vids will do the speaking for me.
Now to end let me make a few last comments
1. You can play arpeggios that have Non chord tones so saying chord tone arpeggios is a valid terminology.
2. I know scales are not going away anytime soon. I added to this thread my 2 cents to attempt to help players understand the way instruments used to be approached and still are by a few.
3. Some people like Groove, etc, will say its all important scales and chord tones. However, look around....scales scales scales are everywhere not just this thread, and u hear almost nothing about musicians wanting to learn chord tone arpeggios. I can't understand this when 98 percent of all music is chord tones.
4. Theorist will say u can learn chord tones and harmony through scales, reality is that almost everyone can not understand the harmony through a scale that looks like C D E F G A B C. Music has too many borrowed chords which makes scales a difficult way of teaching harmony. A song could have back to back borrowed chords like C major Cm7 Cm7b5 and compensating with a scale pattern is going to be difficult verse seeing it from a chord pattern.
5. Knowing that music is 98 percent chord tones, I'm still scratching my head as to why everywhere we see scales and no one utters the words chord tones. I guess what I'm saying here is that we should emphasize chord tone arpeggios more than we do scales or at least give them equal treatment when 98 percent of music is chord tones.

In closing I know that we can all agree that when you look up above each measure of music you will see chords. Therefore, this is the reason why 98 percent of melody line notes, bass parts, guitar parts, etc, are all chord tones. With that said, ask yourself these questions:

1. Do I know all the chord tones for every chord? If you see Cmaj7 , F#dim7, Ab7, etc., can u name the chord tones right away without having to think about it? If you are learning through scales and cannot do this, then maybe u might want to consider trying to learn chord tone arpeggios.
2. Is your playing too much stepwise motion and scale sounding rather then something that sounds more like a melody with hills and valleys? If your playing sounds like your just running scales with that da da da da da da da da da sound, consider chord tone arpeggios.
3. Can You look at a piece of music and on the spot transpose it and play it in another key? If not, consider chord tone arpeggios.

Groove, I still want to express that I would love to come to your University and give a seminar. I would not make it a pissing contest and would just love to give a different perspective and to show how the Jazz musicians of the 40s and 50s interpreted Jazz. P.S I'm not sure why u are taking small parts of my comments and making them quotes? Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's wrong.

And finally, what many here have done, if they are being truthful, have just taken a concept that I'm trying to teach which I have been stating is not new, nor did I invent it, and turn it to look like that's all I know. All I have done was give another perspective which the majority of you don't like. Fair enough, but now look at all of your insults and personal attacks toward me and go back through my posts. I do not personally attack any of you guys. I'm just pointing out the way the instruments use to be approached and I already posted the Jeff Berlin video. I don't just point out guitar players rather, I posted a mixture of musicians to show an approach that is used across a bigger spectrum. An approach that many musicians in the past used.

[Schlyder]

Yup, that is hall of fame material right there. LOL

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by sgiacomo

Thanks Fergie. I feel less stupid now if that makes any sense!

Check out the JB link I posted, and the other links, says it all for anyone interested in adding some chord tone ideas to their playing.

Consider this, even if a player is hammering a root, they are playing a chord tone, if they play root/5 they are playing chord tones. A rock n roll bass line are chord tones, in fact most songs will be mostly chord tones with approaches, it is the approaches or passing tones that give in-experienced players the problems, but even they can sound right, most teachers call them "avoid notes" or notes you need to be aware of.
It is the use of the approach that needs to be understood as well as the chord.
Most sheets will give you the chord, it is the players judgment on the approach to it ( the notes used in-between chords) as music flows.....it is not static. So a bass line will start and move towards a chord, through it, over it, or under it, on its journey to the next one...it is all about movement with in movement if you will....JB will show you.

[JoeWPgh]

This is getting silly.
"1. You can play arpeggios that have Non chord tones so saying chord tone arpeggios is a valid terminology."
An arpeggio is made up of chord tones. When you add non-chord tones, you have a scale.

[chadgrimes]

Joe, lets say u have a G chord and the arranger writes an arpeggio that is G, D, C, B, its an arpeggio that has a non chord tone. Scales are a complete scale, that technically is different then playing scale degrees. U really got to stop getting hung up on every little terminology.

Here is an idea, I stated I'm ending the thread, why don't u please stop picking fights.

[ics1974]

I believe the difference between scale thinking and chord tone thinking is this.
Scale thinking is seeing the scale and looking in at the chord tones.
Chord tone thinking is seeing the chord tones first and looking out at the other scale notes that surround the chord tones.
In vs Out thinking is the difference.

I am a out thinker as I like to see the chord tones first and fill in the gaps with scale tones if need be.

[chadgrimes]

That sounds like a good observation ics. The sad truth though, is that many people who try and see harmony through scales...don't. I hear and see this all the time. A bass player will see G major chord on the lead sheet and they might walk a bass line that goes...G, A, C, E, hitting scale notes without any understand of chord tones. That is why Carol Kaye and Pat Metheny, as well as many old musicians are saying that the scale players today are always floating above the harmony and never sounding like they are in it.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally Posted by ics1974

I believe the difference between scale thinking and chord tone thinking is this.
Scale thinking is seeing the scale and looking in at the chord tones.
Chord tone thinking is seeing the chord tones first and looking out at the other scale notes that surround the chord tones.
In vs Out thinking is the difference.

I am a out thinker as I like to see the chord tones first and fill in the gaps with scale tones if need be.

+1, I'm a out thinker too.