Learning Songs VS Practicing Scales, Theory etc

[::::BASSIST::::]

Since I'm not into improvising what would expedite my excelling at bass?

I assume scales and theory... please explain why.

[JimmyM]

theory always excels your playing over just learning songs. and while i think you should know scales (and you will as a by-product of learning theory), i think chord based theory works a lot better for making music that sounds like music rather than limiting yourself with scales.

[otis_thick]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Since I'm not into improvising what expedite my excelling at bass?

I assume scales and theory... please explain why.

IMHO
Listening....theory,scales and modes etc. help with "language of music". Listening to the other instruments and inter reacting with them "harmonically" and "rhythmically" IS making music....the analytical breakdown part allows you to understand and communicate it.

[uglyrumor]

Why? Because that is your vocabulary. Just as you appreciate a well-turned phrase or a poetic description, and the knowledge of language that produced it, your mastery of scales and chords gives you the ability to wax poetic musically.

Sometimes I think people ask questions without thinking, or miss the whole concept of music entirely.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Since I'm not into improvising what expedite my excelling at bass?

I assume scales and theory... please explain why.

think of it as the giving a guy a fish or teaching him to fish deal....knowing what to play is far better than playing only what you know

[::::BASSIST::::]

Originally Posted by uglyrumor

Why? Because that is your vocabulary. Just as you appreciate a well-turned phrase or a poetic description, and the knowledge of language that produced it, your mastery of scales and chords gives you the ability to wax poetic musically.

Sometimes I think people ask questions without thinking, or miss the whole concept of music entirely.

I'd like to think there are no dumb questions. Guess I was wrong.

With a full-time day job, a busy band and a family including a "high-maintenance" wife, I'm just figuring out what's the best way to utilize the precious moments when I have energy/time to practice. I am not sure I'll ever be an advanced/spectacular bassist (I'm sort of intermediate to upper-intermediate at this point) and I guess I've reached a plateau where I dont seem to notice myself improving.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

I'd like to think there are no dumb questions. Guess I was wrong.

With a full-time day job, a busy band and a family including a "high-maintenance" wife, I'm just figuring out what's the best way to utilize the precious moments when I have energy/time to practice. I am not sure I'll ever be an advanced/spectacular bassist (I'm sort of intermediate to upper-intermediate at this point) and I guess I've reached a plateau where I dont seem to notice myself improving.

that's because you learned songs instead of learning music. doesn't seem to hurt you since you gig regularly, but it really does open up a whole world to you, and instead of peaking and not knowing what to practice, take lessons from someone well versed in jazz concepts and you'll gather enough info where you'll get yourself on a practice regimen guaranteed to improve your playing and always give you something to do to improve. and you'll be able to find stuff on your own that makes you improve as well.

[Plantbrain]

Learn the theory, then you can learn any of the songs 10x easier.
Hard to see it if you are new, but while it's good to learn from experience, make sure it's not your own experience.

Plenty of folks suffered a lot more by limiting themselves.
Do it right from the start, you will be much better in the end and you'll learn it with much less pain/faster etc.

I cannot stress this enough, as will most players and guitarist etc.

Tom

[karter2000]

Hey buddy,

I'm totally in the same boat. I'm in 3 bands, but I'm also trying to improve my theory knowledge. Mostly because I really have no clue what I'm playing. I've been taking lessons, but I hardly have time to practice anything my teacher tells me! I think Cory senses that, so he tries to teach me through the songs I have to learn for the bands. I think I'm finally starting to understand everything, but it's taken a while.

Of course, I could always spend less time on here, plus less time screwing around with gear, building pedals, etc.

[Jim Nazium]

IMHO, there's a balance. In my early years of studying the bass, I spent a lot of time on scales and theory and not much time learning tunes, and if I had it to do over, I think I'd put a lot more emphasis on learning tunes (by ear). It's useful to understand the structure and harmony of the songs you're playing, but at the end of the day, songs are what we play, not scales.

Again, balance. If you can understand diatonic harmony (triads & 7th chords) and the modes of the major scale, that will take you a long way toward understanding how songs are structured. And it's not rocket science; you can learn that in a couple of months.

[santucci218]

Here is my approach to it. I am not in a cover band, and I never aspire to me. Thus, i have no reason to learn others music anymore. Note, that I dont think this applies to beginners, I'm talking intermediate and up. Anyways, if I can not tell what somebody is doing in a song, I will learn parts, just to get the rough idea. For example, I heard a near atonal, odd timing, but groovy metal tune the other day. I can not make my bass do this. I looked up the song. Got a good idea of what they were doing, then made my own song in the style of it with my ideas. I feel this to be a much better learning experience than learning their song note for note, because then I didnt apply anything! Its one thing to know theory. Its another to apply it.

If you are in the same boat as me, then I will suggest the same. If you are jamming with guys who want to just play some tunes together that everyone knows, than my approach isn't what you want. It is different for every player. If you want to tell me more about what you do with bass and what kind of music you are involved in, then maybe I can give you more specific ideas.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Since I'm not into improvising what would expedite my excelling at bass?

I assume scales and theory... please explain why.

I don't think you can afford to ignore improvising - in any form of music!

I played in several originals pop/rock bands and the way most songs were written was either for the band to jam and improvise until we got something we all liked - or a band member would bring in ideas for songs and as bass player, I improvised lines until it was what was wanted.

I see improvising as an essential part of music and which teaches you huge amounts about how to create music and is even more useful when you are up on stage and something unexpected happens or it all goes wrong!! So the audience want to hear music - they don't want to hear you saying that you aren't into improvising!

It's also a great fun way to practice - i.e. improvising along to chords etc.

[stratovani]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Since I'm not into improvising what would expedite my excelling at bass?

I assume scales and theory... please explain why.

If you're a bass player in a band that's going to be a cover band playing in bars then I'd suggess learning songs, but if you aspire to be the next Jaco then a solid grounding in music theory is essential. The fundamentals of music theory is good for every musician to know, and it's not incredibly hard to learn. It's like rocket science, if all you want to do is launch toy rockets in your backyard then the basics of rocketry might be all you need. But if you want to play with the big boys at NASA, then a much deeper knowledge of rocket science is required.

[Fergie Fulton]

Try this approach, look at all the songs you have learned to play, find the theory that applies to them via chords, arrangements, keys etc. Then ask yourself what could have been done to improve them, ask why are they structured so?

You will start to see similarities in their construction and this will allow you to recognise similar songs with similar construction that maybe have a bit more, they were expanded in some way, so by reason you will expand your understanding. Don't just learn songs and apply what you know, push the boundaries to take in new ideas and expand with them.

From a foundation like this you can build in your theory as you go and understand what you can play and why. This will lead you to academic principals if you wish to go down that road, those principals will always be there just make sure you're in the best place to start them.

[Matt in TN]

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

IMHO, there's a balance. In my early years of studying the bass, I spent a lot of time on scales and theory and not much time learning tunes, and if I had it to do over, I think I'd put a lot more emphasis on learning tunes (by ear). It's useful to understand the structure and harmony of the songs you're playing, but at the end of the day, songs are what we play, not scales.

Again, balance. If you can understand diatonic harmony (triads & 7th chords) and the modes of the major scale, that will take you a long way toward understanding how songs are structured. And it's not rocket science; you can learn that in a couple of months.

I'm with you. Think of it like learning to write. If you only memorized the dictionary and the rules of grammar (scales and music theory) you might make a good English teacher but you wouldn't necessarily be able to write a good novel or short story. Read lots of novels by good writers, and you'll see how to put the theory to practice. When you come across a word you don't understand (a musical phrase you can't play, or a "why did he play that there?") look it up in the dictionary.

I'm not saying DON'T practice scales and learn theory - absolutely DO! Just don't make it all you practice...

[guroove]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Try this approach, look at all the songs you have learned to play, find the theory that applies to them via chords, arrangements, keys etc. Then ask yourself what could have been done to improve them, ask why are they structured so?

You will start to see similarities in their construction and this will allow you to recognise similar songs with similar construction that maybe have a bit more, they were expanded in some way, so by reason you will expand your understanding. Don't just learn songs and apply what you know, push the boundaries to take in new ideas and expand with them.

From a foundation like this you can build in your theory as you go and understand what you can play and why. This will lead you to academic principals if you wish to go down that road, those principals will always be there just make sure you're in the best place to start them.

This is very good advice. If you want to take this approach a step further, learn some country songs. The bass lines typically start with the root and bounce between the root and the fifth, and the progressions generally are centered around a lot of I - IV - V with a some II and VI chords thrown in there sometimes.

When you fully understand what's going in there, learn standard blues forms. You'll automatically know hundreds of songs when you can play a standard 12 bar blues.

It's good to be familiar with the standard major and minor scales as well as modes, but I wouldn't spend too much time practicing them. If you need something to practice, arpeggios will get you familiar with the fingerboard pretty quickly.

Another thing that's important to understand is how to harmonize chords diatonically. That basically just means how to build a chord off of any scale degree. So in C major, for example, you can only play notes that are in the C major scale. You would have C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G7, A minor, and B diminished.

Once you've learned all of this, someone can hand you a chord sheet for a song you've never played before, and you'll be able to play it.

[::::BASSIST::::]

Originally Posted by santucci218

Here is my approach to it. I am not in a cover band, and I never aspire to me. Thus, i have no reason to learn others music anymore. Note, that I dont think this applies to beginners, I'm talking intermediate and up. Anyways, if I can not tell what somebody is doing in a song, I will learn parts, just to get the rough idea. For example, I heard a near atonal, odd timing, but groovy metal tune the other day. I can not make my bass do this. I looked up the song. Got a good idea of what they were doing, then made my own song in the style of it with my ideas. I feel this to be a much better learning experience than learning their song note for note, because then I didnt apply anything! Its one thing to know theory. Its another to apply it.

If you are in the same boat as me, then I will suggest the same. If you are jamming with guys who want to just play some tunes together that everyone knows, than my approach isn't what you want. It is different for every player. If you want to tell me more about what you do with bass and what kind of music you are involved in, then maybe I can give you more specific ideas.

The band I play in plays roots rock, surf, blues, and rockabilly. We play 70% covers and 30% originals. Since many of the covers we play are from the 50s with barely audible upright basslines, I almost always make up my own basslines. When we are learning a new original I'll usually just root note it or play it very simply until I can get home and write a 'proper' bassline for it (I record the new tunes to do this). I always try to give the bassline a danceable groove, but at the same time, my bandleader heavily frowns upon busy basslines so I cannot use too many notes. He wouldnt mind if I played root/5 or the 'boogie' bassline that is present in many songs of rockabilly (think Crazy Little Thing Called Love by Queen). However, if I kept playing only those two forms all the time I'd go nuts with boredom so I try to keep the basslines more interesting.

myspace.com/dickcashrockabilly to see what I play (I am not playing on the first song).

[::::BASSIST::::]

Originally Posted by guroove

This is very good advice. If you want to take this approach a step further, learn some country songs. The bass lines typically start with the root and bounce between the root and the fifth, and the progressions generally are centered around a lot of I - IV - V with a some II and VI chords thrown in there sometimes.

When you fully understand what's going in there, learn standard blues forms. You'll automatically know hundreds of songs when you can play a standard 12 bar blues.

It's good to be familiar with the standard major and minor scales as well as modes, but I wouldn't spend too much time practicing them. If you need something to practice, arpeggios will get you familiar with the fingerboard pretty quickly.

Another thing that's important to understand is how to harmonize chords diatonically. That basically just means how to build a chord off of any scale degree. So in C major, for example, you can only play notes that are in the C major scale. You would have C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G7, A minor, and B diminished.

Once you've learned all of this, someone can hand you a chord sheet for a song you've never played before, and you'll be able to play it.

Except for the diatonic stuff, I know almost all that already.

[guroove]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Except for the diatonic stuff, I know almost all that already.

It's funny, I almost wasn't going to mention it, but it was kind of the last piece of the puzzle to improvisational freedom. You really start to see things differently.

So in your case, I think it would help to learn the modes, and their corresponding chords. Practicing ascending and descending arpegio scales diatonically really gives you an excellent grasp of where your harmonies sit. The harmonic colors become a part of your hands, and you don't need to involve the front of your brain so much.

[santucci218]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

The band I play in plays roots rock, surf, blues, and rockabilly. We play 70% covers and 30% originals. Since many of the covers we play are from the 50s with barely audible upright basslines, I almost always make up my own basslines. When we are learning a new original I'll usually just root note it or play it very simply until I can get home and write a 'proper' bassline for it (I record the new tunes to do this). I always try to give the bassline a danceable groove, but at the same time, my bandleader heavily frowns upon busy basslines so I cannot use too many notes. He wouldnt mind if I played root/5 or the 'boogie' bassline that is present in many songs of rockabilly (think Crazy Little Thing Called Love by Queen). However, if I kept playing only those two forms all the time I'd go nuts with boredom so I try to keep the basslines more interesting.


myspace.com/dickcashrockabilly to see what I play (I am not playing on the first song).

Okay! I'm checking out a few tunes here. Honestly, your bass is solid on all this stuff. From what you said I understand what you mean about being bored. Personally, I like to do alot of techie playing. I'm alone, I'm not going to rock a 12 bar blues, haha. I'm going to take my bass and try to make as big and full a sounding song as I can. Honestly, I did it too much! I did that for years. Then I was out recording with friends and they are having me play...THE ROOT NOTE!? I came to the realization that not everything fits in a style. Hell, I just made this song that had 2 parts that were so cool, and after I recorded it, I listened to it to see how much they didnt fit. A shame because I really dug the parts and didn't want to let them go, but I had to for the benefit of the music.

How that applies to you is, while youre basslines may not be amazing to you, they are perfect for your bands settings, and you should be proud of that. It is a tough time when us musicians have to sacrifice for the good of many. I love my tone, but it doesnt fit when I record with friends, so I have to change it. What I am seeing here is a man who needs to find his real voice in music. I feel like I have only done this more recently, and am embracing it more and more. Sure my stuff sounds like Back meets Aphex Twins, but it's mine and for that I love it. Your band may not be your voice, but its always nice to play out of your element. To me it sounds like you need to find your voice and explore man. Maybe the ideas in your head arent in the surf rock genre! Get some recording stuff. Record. Practice more. Buy a G*****r and learn some stuff to accompany your bass. See what you make!

I don't think you really need to learn tunes external to what you are playing in your band unless you are curious as to how they are getting that sound. Even then, you don't HAVE to learn the whole song. Learn the part that catches your ear and apply it. Make something that sounds like it. I am far more proud of the fact that I can write music in the style of instead of just play something that somebody else made.

I wish you good luck in the exploration!