Let's talk minor scales.

[Fire-Starter]

Does any one here really use the Melodic minor, Harmonic or Dorian minor in their music? I would really like to hear a song or example of a song using Melodic minor (where the 6th and 7th notes are raised 1/2 step going up the scale,but are natural comming down it)

I use these as warm ups etc, along with blues scale, and major and minor Petatonic scales,, but I find them more of interest when you can actually see or hear them in music as such. Maybe I just need to get out more

[DrayMiles]

You need to look at more jazz standard fake books. It's all there.. Think of the melodic minor as a major scale with a flat 3rd. I would be more detailed, but look at the modes on the melodic minor and their relative chords. There is a relationship...

[DocBop]

Besided Jazz using all the minor scale and some of the minor modes listen to Santana and others for Dorian.

What I think the issue is too many newbies to scales beyond major and natural minor run up and down the scale, or sit on the different note for a minute, then say they don't get it and move on. If it doesn't hit them right away its back to major and pentatonic. You have to spend time learning how to use those new colors on your pallete. If your not hearing it in other music then you ear hasn't heard it enough to recognize it. So listen to what you practice besides getting a new scale/mode under your fingers, and the theory in your head, most important have to get the sound in your ear. First the sound of the scale, then the sound of the note(s) different from major or natural minor. Then the real work of learning how to use those new notes. Add them to your bass lines, use them in solos, write a tune using the scale. Equally important is learning when not to use the sound as well as when it fits. That is just a lot of playing and listening. Which chords does it sound good with, bad with. What beats does it work on strong beat, weak beat. What styles does it fit. Listen for it in music and transcribe some lines or patterns with it. Then make some of your own.

There are only 12 notes in Western music and about 8-10 typical chords to you need to at learn the basics about. Then add rhythms and styles. When you hear about musicians practicing or playing for hours and hours this it the type of thing they are doing. Picking a note or a chord and discovering all they can do with it. What have others done with it. As one great teacher said you need to "See it, Feel it, Make it your own"

So take Dorian today it is used in all styles of music. It only has one note different from natural minor. Listen to some Santana, but many players use it. Listen to Miles Davis classic tune So What it is based on Dorian. Then start the process above. Make Dorian your own. No pain, no gain.

[PocketGroove82]

firestarter,
I'm sure you've seen the chord symbol "G7alt" or "G7 b9,#9,#11 (or b5),b13".
This Altered Mixolydian/Dominant chord sound is very common. It's found in tons and tons of jazz standards, usually resolving down a P5 to a natural minor chord.

The scale associated with these ambiguous, dense, tense chord sound has many given names; the altered scale, herb pomeroy scale, or diminished-wholetone. And it really is a beautiful sound once your ears and mind get inside it.

Would you like to learn this awesome scale? Guess what! You already know it. (If you know your Jazz Melodic Minor Scale)

Play the C Jazz Melodic Minor Scale (same notes up and down...don't lower the 6th and 7th on the way down) only do this starting on the 7th tone of the scale, which would be a B natural, and there is that lovely, often used sound coming straight from the Melodic Minor Scale.

The 1st for notes (B, C, D, Eb) are half/whole diminished sound, and the last 4 (F, G, A, B) are wholetone. This hybrid sound is why it has the name Diminished-Wholetone.
The standard lick would be playing that B,C,D,Eb in quarter notes, during a measure of B7alt resolving to E-7. So you would be walking the Root/b9/#9/3rd resolving cleanly by step into the root of the minor chord in the next bar. (does that make sense?)

It's a lovely sound, that you should try to become familiar with.

You see, music is all about tension and release. Granted, there is tension and release in the standard harmony of the major scale and it's modes, but sometimes a composer/improviser just needs more. This type of sound can be found in the modes of the harmonic and melodic scales.

Think about this simple progression "C7b9 resolving down a 5th to F-7, in the key of Fminor". If there wasn't the harmonic minor version of Fminor, then we couldn't have that lovely, tension causing Enatural present in the C7b9 chord...which just begs to be resolved. If we only had the F natural minor scale, that C7b9 could only be a C-7 (because Eb is the only type of E naturally present in the key of Fminor), which offers much less tension and doesn't deliver that same "tension wanting to resolve" quality.

There are more interesting modes which are often used that are derived from the Jazz Melodic Minor scale.

The mode based off the 3rd is called the Lydian Augmented and is used with the "Maj+5" sound.

The 4th mode is called the Lydian Dominant and is really nice over the "Dom7+11" chord sound.

The 6th mode is the Locrian #2 (or natural 2, if you wish) and nice one over diminished sounding chords.

None of these sounds are really going to be laid down on for extremely long periods of time because they constitute the tension aspect of music, but they are common sounds not found in your boring ol' major/ natural minor/pentatonic type of thinking.

Now get them in your heard and under your fingers!

Matt


p.s. The Jamey Abersold volume 26, "The Scale Syllabus" would be a good resource for you to experiment with ideas from these more exotic sounds.

[Fire-Starter]

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

firestarter,
I'm sure you've seen the chord symbol "G7alt" or "G7 b9,#9,#11 (or b5),b13".
This Altered Mixolydian/Dominant chord sound is very common. It's found in tons and tons of jazz standards, usually resolving down a P5 to a natural minor chord.

The scale associated with these ambiguous, dense, tense chord sound has many given names; the altered scale, herb pomeroy scale, or diminished-wholetone. And it really is a beautiful sound once your ears and mind get inside it.

Would you like to learn this awesome scale? Guess what! You already know it. (If you know your Jazz Melodic Minor Scale)

Play the C Jazz Melodic Minor Scale (same notes up and down...don't lower the 6th and 7th on the way down) only do this starting on the 7th tone of the scale, which would be a B natural, and there is that lovely, often used sound coming straight from the Melodic Minor Scale.

The 1st for notes (B, C, D, Eb) are half/whole diminished sound, and the last 4 (F, G, A, B) are wholetone. This hybrid sound is why it has the name Diminished-Wholetone.
The standard lick would be playing that B,C,D,Eb in quarter notes, during a measure of B7alt resolving to E-7. So you would be walking the Root/b9/#9/3rd resolving cleanly by step into the root of the minor chord in the next bar. (does that make sense?)

It's a lovely sound, that you should try to become familiar with.

You see, music is all about tension and release. Granted, there is tension and release in the standard harmony of the major scale and it's modes, but sometimes a composer/improviser just needs more. This type of sound can be found in the modes of the harmonic and melodic scales.

Think about this simple progression "C7b9 resolving down a 5th to F-7, in the key of Fminor". If there wasn't the harmonic minor version of Fminor, then we couldn't have that lovely, tension causing Enatural present in the C7b9 chord...which just begs to be resolved. If we only had the F natural minor scale, that C7b9 could only be a C-7 (because Eb is the only type of E naturally present in the key of Fminor), which offers much less tension and doesn't deliver that same "tension wanting to resolve" quality.

There are more interesting modes which are often used that are derived from the Jazz Melodic Minor scale.

The mode based off the 3rd is called the Lydian Augmented and is used with the "Maj+5" sound.

The 4th mode is called the Lydian Dominant and is really nice over the "Dom7+11" chord sound.

The 6th mode is the Locrian #2 (or natural 2, if you wish) and nice one over diminished sounding chords.

None of these sounds are really going to be laid down on for extremely long periods of time because they constitute the tension aspect of music, but they are common sounds not found in your boring ol' major/ natural minor/pentatonic type of thinking.

Now get them in your heard and under your fingers!

Matt


p.s. The Jamey Abersold volume 26, "The Scale Syllabus" would be a good resource for you to experiment with ideas from these more exotic sounds.

Good stuff Matt, Thanks

[PocketGroove82]

No prob. FireStarter.
If you really look into the harmony of jazz tunes, you can't help but run into harmonic and melodic minor harmony. It's no totally in your face, like Minor-Major chords all over the place, but it's in there.
As far as melodic thinking, I really like starting minor chord licks on the natural 7th of the chord, on an offbeat.

So on a C-7, I'll use the B natural on "the and of one" sliding up into the C-9 arpeggio.
It sounds really nice, and it adds motion since it's a weird note on a offbeat resolving into a chord tone on a downbeat.

[Ericman197]

harmonic minor is very very common in classical music. Common example: Moonlight Sonata

Tab: http://www.azchords.com/l/ludwigvanb...abs-23526.html

chords are:

Am | Am7/G

F Bb/D | E7 Am/E Esus4 Em

Am...

roman numeral:

i | i (4/2)
VI N6 | V7 i (6/4) V (sus4) V
i

which basically means we're using two scale tricks:

1. the neapolitan chord (major chord one semitone above the key... in Am it would be Bb major, in E it would be F major, etc.) gives us a strong transition to the dominant (V aka E) which takes us home. If you want to look at it in purely scale terms:

0 2 3 5 7 8 10 12 = minor scale on A string

-----------
-----------
-1-----0---
----4------

N #7 A

note: i would not actually play this on bass because it's a bit of a rule breaker. You would be better off playing roots for this (actually the root of the N6 is the third).

2. harmonic minor: we sharpen the 7th so that instead of using the normal Em to Am cadence which is bland and boring, we go E major to A minor. This is the essence of harmonic minor. Use that sharpened seventh when going back to the key note (in this case A).

Of course you have to be careful when using any of these tricks. If you go hog wild with the harmonic minor you're going to add a spanishy, arabic kinda sound which may not be what you're going for. However a few well placed raised 7ths will spice up your life.

[Fire-Starter]

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

No prob. FireStarter.
If you really look into the harmony of jazz tunes, you can't help but run into harmonic and melodic minor harmony. It's no totally in your face, like Minor-Major chords all over the place, but it's in there.
As far as melodic thinking, I really like starting minor chord licks on the natural 7th of the chord, on an offbeat.

So on a C-7, I'll use the B natural on "the and of one" sliding up into the C-9 arpeggio.
It sounds really nice, and it adds motion since it's a weird note on a offbeat resolving into a chord tone on a downbeat.

Is that technique known as a Leading tone? a way to approach chord changes by a half step, or even whole steps by advancing into or backing into the upcomming chord to be played? I know I have used it many time without really understand why I was using it, but it just seemed right. Hope I am not off in left field someplace?

Thanks again for you input!

[Fire-Starter]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Besided Jazz using all the minor scale and some of the minor modes listen to Santana and others for Dorian.

What I think the issue is too many newbies to scales beyond major and natural minor run up and down the scale, or sit on the different note for a minute, then say they don't get it and move on. If it doesn't hit them right away its back to major and pentatonic. You have to spend time learning how to use those new colors on your pallete. If your not hearing it in other music then you ear hasn't heard it enough to recognize it. So listen to what you practice besides getting a new scale/mode under your fingers, and the theory in your head, most important have to get the sound in your ear. First the sound of the scale, then the sound of the note(s) different from major or natural minor. Then the real work of learning how to use those new notes. Add them to your bass lines, use them in solos, write a tune using the scale. Equally important is learning when not to use the sound as well as when it fits. That is just a lot of playing and listening. Which chords does it sound good with, bad with. What beats does it work on strong beat, weak beat. What styles does it fit. Listen for it in music and transcribe some lines or patterns with it. Then make some of your own.

There are only 12 notes in Western music and about 8-10 typical chords to you need to at learn the basics about. Then add rhythms and styles. When you hear about musicians practicing or playing for hours and hours this it the type of thing they are doing. Picking a note or a chord and discovering all they can do with it. What have others done with it. As one great teacher said you need to "See it, Feel it, Make it your own"

So take Dorian today it is used in all styles of music. It only has one note different from natural minor. Listen to some Santana, but many players use it. Listen to Miles Davis classic tune So What it is based on Dorian. Then start the process above. Make Dorian your own. No pain, no gain.

I will work on this, I am actually now trying to get the Melodic, Harmonic, and Dorian minor in my head by listening to that raised 6th or 7th note, OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, so I can know it right of the bat by hearing them. I Think if I do them on the Piano as well, it well drill it in my head more...yes???

[Chad.mundt]

BTW, Harmonic minor is a rarely used sound in non-classical music. In jazz, especially, melodic minor is used much more. Harm minor is often used by beginning improvisors to get around minor ii-V-Is, but this is generally considered an amatuer move. And two exceptions would be if you are looking for a middle-eastern type of sound (also try harmonic major, which is that same thing with a major third), or if you are looking for a Spanish sound (5th mode of harmonic minor). Other than that, I have gotten along quite well without ever touching harmonic minor.

[Chad.mundt]

Originally Posted by Fire-Starter

I will work on this, I am actually now trying to get the Melodic, Harmonic, and Dorian minor in my head by listening to that raised 6th or 7th note, OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, so I can know it right of the bat by hearing them. I Think if I do them on the Piano as well, it well drill it in my head more...yes???

I have found that my ear develops much more quickly if I sing what I am trying to learn, rather than playing it at the piano. In fact, don't touch the piano. Learning how to train your ears independent of an instrument is an invaluable skill.

I wouldn't freak out about learning these scales (with the exception of dorian) unless you want to learn to play jazz or heavily-jazz-inspired music. Most rock music is mostly major, minor/major pentatonic, natural minor, with a sprinkling of dorian here and there.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Chad.mundt

I have found that my ear develops much more quickly if I sing what I am trying to learn, rather than playing it at the piano. In fact, don't touch the piano. Learning how to train your ears independent of an instrument is an invaluable skill.

I wouldn't freak out about learning these scales (with the exception of dorian) unless you want to learn to play jazz or heavily-jazz-inspired music. Most rock music is mostly major, minor/major pentatonic, natural minor, with a sprinkling of dorian here and there.

And if you do ear training without an instrument how do you know your singing the right pitch. It's like trying to work on your time without a metronome. Most people sing 3rd's a bit flat and off on 4ths. Yes you should work without an instrument as well as with an instrument a piano if possible beause they are usually more in tune, easier to hear, and many time the instrument our trying to key off of.

As for scale you start getting into soloing and even Rock player use all the different minor scales. I don't suggestion learning all of them at once, but over time all good musicians learn them all. Scales are tools and you need to learn them, learn how to use them, then find your own way to use them. Ignoring all the scales, chords, and other aspectos of music is like like saying you can fix anything with just a scewdriver and pair of pliers. Sure you can fix a lot but also mess somethings up, strip screw heads and nuts, but get by. You have a well equiped toolbox you can handle just about any job.