Line Construction Question

[DudeistMonk]

First off...Hello! I just registered after reading through tons of sweet posts in sticky form.

So I have a question, but its complicated and needs a little background...

With a chord progression laid out in front of me and all the time in the world to construct a line I can function effectively... but I like the idea of being able to improvise bass lines, being able to pull a bass line out of a** has been my goal since day one.

It seems I can take one of 2 approaches to accomplishing this and I was looking for some insight as to how you all think of it...

I can think of each chord in the progression as a different entity, which right now makes my playing sound rather plain, simple and repetitive, because I find it hard to think of how all the chords relate to each other on the fly in order to walk the line.

or

I could think of the line as being formed out of the scale and try to hit the root of the chord at the appropriate time. This method seems easier but right now I feel like it makes my playing sloppy, unstructured and ineffective in terms of a what a bass line should be.

So how do the talented improvisational players do it? I need a ton of practice either way but it might help if I had a strategy.

Thanks,
Chris

[Bassist4Life]

What style of music are we talking about here?

[jarroc]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

First off...Hello! I just registered after reading through tons of sweet posts in sticky form.

So I have a question, but its complicated and needs a little background...

With a chord progression laid out in front of me and all the time in the world to construct a line I can function effectively... but I like the idea of being able to improvise bass lines, being able to pull a bass line out of a** has been my goal since day one.

It seems I can take one of 2 approaches to accomplishing this and I was looking for some insight as to how you all think of it...

I can think of each chord in the progression as a different entity, which right now makes my playing sound rather plain, simple and repetitive, because I find it hard to think of how all the chords relate to each other on the fly in order to walk the line.

or

I could think of the line as being formed out of the scale and try to hit the root of the chord at the appropriate time. This method seems easier but right now I feel like it makes my playing sloppy, unstructured and ineffective in terms of a what a bass line should be.

So how do the talented improvisational players do it? I need a ton of practice either way but it might help if I had a strategy.

Thanks,
Chris

In general, until you really know what you're doing, try to stay within the current tonal key. But perhaps more importantly, as a bass player, you should also know where the harmony is going. In other words, it's usually the bass players job to "direct the harmonic traffic." (TM) Often, the bass line should imply where the harmony is going, especially within jazz and jazz-related music (this is kind of the thinking, I believe, behind the walking bass line).

So you either need to have an incredible ear, or you need to start learning your music theory. What key are you in? What function does the current chord serve within that key (i.e. is it a ii chord, a V chord)? From there, you can expand and grow until you can sort of "re-harmonize" on the fly. But start with learning what key you're in and what function the current chord serves.

[DudeistMonk]

So you either need to have an incredible ear, or you need to start learning your music theory. What key are you in? What function does the current chord serve within that key (i.e. is it a ii chord, a V chord)? From there, you can expand and grow until you can sort of "re-harmonize" on the fly. But start with learning what key you're in and what function the current chord serves.

The short answer... 12 bar blues in A.

The long answer...

I took music theory 101 in college, so I get the basics...

As far as genre or what not goes, I'm going for bluesy rock... if I had to pick a bassist to emulate I'd probably say Tad Kinchla of Blues Traveler, but I listen to a ton of stuff and find myself writing stuff that is funky or harder as well.

Up to this point I'm really just sitting in my basement with garage band pumping out drum loops and playing over them, which is fine except I tend to come up with riffs, and thats not really what I'm going for, I want to write lines that are constantly changing and evolving and moving the song.

So in an attempt to break out of writing riffs that loop over and over I've taken to trying to write lines to 12 bar blues, since as far as chord progressions go that seems like a logical place to start. I understand how chords relate to the key, and why some turn out major or minor or diminished in a particular key ext. but the class I took only covered the basics of chord theory (I graduated before I could take theory2).

I'm always looking for more theory, especially in direct relation to bass...my bass instructor back in the day was the "play these scales for 3 months before I tell you what they are any good for" type, and I stopped playing before I could develop a single original musical thought. Music theory class revived my interest and now I actually want to practice my scales...I'm still trying to apply all that I learned to bass, so if anyone has any reading material suggestions for me that would be great too.

I appreciate all the help...I think I found a forum to troll while I'm at work

-Chris

[jarroc]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

The short answer... 12 bar blues in A.

The long answer...

I took music theory 101 in college, so I get the basics...

As far as genre or what not goes, I'm going for bluesy rock... if I had to pick a bassist to emulate I'd probably say Tad Kinchla of Blues Traveler, but I listen to a ton of stuff and find myself writing stuff that is funky or harder as well.

Up to this point I'm really just sitting in my basement with garage band pumping out drum loops and playing over them, which is fine except I tend to come up with riffs, and thats not really what I'm going for, I want to write lines that are constantly changing and evolving and moving the song.

So in an attempt to break out of writing riffs that loop over and over I've taken to trying to write lines to 12 bar blues, since as far as chord progressions go that seems like a logical place to start. I understand how chords relate to the key, and why some turn out major or minor or diminished in a particular key ext. but the class I took only covered the basics of chord theory (I graduated before I could take theory2).

I'm always looking for more theory, especially in direct relation to bass...my bass instructor back in the day was the "play these scales for 3 months before I tell you what they are any good for" type, and I stopped playing before I could develop a single original musical thought. Music theory class revived my interest and now I actually want to practice my scales...I'm still trying to apply all that I learned to bass, so if anyone has any reading material suggestions for me that would be great too.

I appreciate all the help...I think I found a forum to troll while I'm at work

-Chris

Music theory isn't just for "geeks." It's very liberating to know where you are and where you're headed.

[51m0n]

Well for a start you can help yourself by stop thinking that a 12 bar blues bass line has to be 12 bars long before you 'go back to the beginning'.

Try writing out exactly as you are now a 24 bar (ie two times around the 12) and on the second time come up with some variations.

Then make it 36 then 48 etc. keep building variations on your variations, but its really nice if you can always 'look back' to where you started. this is actual borrowing heavily from classical composition (no surprise there) and I think might really help you expand your palette.

[DudeistMonk]

So while what everyone is saying is helpful and I agree with everything said... I think I didn't explain my question well enough...

I'm trying to prepare to start working with other musicians, who will know more than me and who will be quicker on the draw so to speak.

I can play a simple bass line and change chords and repeat it standard blues style just fine Ie: for I - V - I or C - G - C, I could play something like C-E-G-Bb | G-B-D-F | C-E-G-Bb (well more complicated than that, but I'm at work with no bass in front of me) and I can write riffy lines for rock songs just fine.

The real question is do you have any tips for walking lines on the fly? I understand the concept, work my way to the root of the next chord using leading tones from above or below, but I want to get inside some of your heads, how are you really going about the process...

Are you playing the root notes and then gradually adding fill as you get comfortable with the progression? Are you playing a lick and trying to alter it as you play to create the walk? Are you all just doing this subconsciously and translating directly from head to fingers?

Then make it 36 then 48 etc. keep building variations on your variations, but its really nice if you can always 'look back' to where you started. this is actual borrowing heavily from classical composition (no surprise there) and I think might really help you expand your palette.

It seems like Jazz is where it's at for walking bass lines and I've listened to a lot of Jazz influenced bands, but not a lot of pure Jazz, I was raised on rock and I don't even know where to begin...any suggestions? a 3 or 4 album shopping list would be great.

-Chris

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

I can play a simple bass line and change chords and repeat it standard blues style just fine Ie: for I - V - I or C - G - C, I could play something like C-E-G-Bb | G-B-D-F | C-E-G-Bb (well more complicated than that, but I'm at work with no bass in front of me) and I can write riffy lines for rock songs just fine.

There's nothing wrong with that. For spice you can add in a 6th and some inversions (playing notes below the root instead of above it). "She Caught the Katy" is a classic use of the 6th both above & below the root. "I Can't Turn You Loose" is another one. Both by the inimitable Donald "Duck" Dunn of Stax records.

Duck Dunn has written some of the greatest bass lines in history. I frequently point people to Duck when they're looking for great examples on how to form simple lines that build the foundation.

There are a number of inexpensive Stax collections out there, and you can check him out in the Blues Brothers movie (and on their records).

[BillyRay]

You sound like you have the ideas right, but you are getting hung-up on having "evolving", "non-riff" lines. The fact is that most bass playing, even walking patterns, have a "riffy" nature to them: if you are always going everywhere, you cannot create a strong harmony.

Also, if you are playing alone, bass can be reptitive, especially in the context of 12-bars blues.

But what I usually do, on the spot:

a) Listen to backup vocals. Now how they harmonize to the lead. If the backups are a major 6th higher (very usual), I'll try to walk my line towards this 6th (or go from there, etc.). You should do the same with horns, guitar, piano, etc. This basically amounts to knowing inversions and chord qualities like the back of your hand and having a great ear. This can lead to many tasteful bass lines.

b) Listen to the drummer. Rythmn is as important, in improvisation, as note choice is. I'd even say that in some contexts, it's even more important.

c) If you have a repertoire of tricks, licks, themes and melodies, pulling one out and playing with it in the context fo your role as a bass player can also take you to the next step. Quoting is the root of my playing, IMHO, moreso than all the walking bass lines I've written while taking jazz courses.

But I'd say that variation is less important than a solid foundation and that most of what you get into when starting impro should be at least a bit riff based: always wanting to add more can make one's playing seem unfocused (such as hitting every note in a scale to get where you want to push the song to). Play with taste, but more importantly with ears.

[DudeistMonk]

Thanks guys, I learned a lot from this little post... putting all the theory I learned recently to bass has been a bit of struggle and I'm glad I found this forum.

I did some reading/playing last night and learned about the differences between Blues and Jazz walking lines, and some of the Jazz techniques like leading tones. Also dissected a couple of the jazz lines and their more complicated chord progressions make the "path" of the line a lot easier to see for me.

I think moving forward I just I'm gonna have to really memorize chord patterns to the point where I know them as well as scales (if not better cause I'm still working on that 2 :P) and like BillyRay mentioned come up with a few aces up my sleeve, varied little interesting licks to play here and there to break things up and indicate some of the chord changes.

Also can anyone point me to some information about how the modes pertain to bass playing...I understand that C-Dorian is C major with D as the root and so on... but how to I apply that directly to being a better bassist?...I ask because this guy I met once was like yeah this is a B7chord which means its in such and such a mode, its easy see...*and commences to tear "3:00 in the morning" a new one*

ohh and I decided I'm not gonna sit around and rely on a guitarist to hand me chord progressions, so if anyone knows of a good reference for more advanced chord theory besides I- IV -V and the basic stuff like D, E and A are minor in the key of C, that would be great too.

Thanks,
Chris

[jarroc]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Thanks guys, I learned a lot from this little post... putting all the theory I learned recently to bass has been a bit of struggle and I'm glad I found this forum.

I did some reading/playing last night and learned about the differences between Blues and Jazz walking lines, and some of the Jazz techniques like leading tones. Also dissected a couple of the jazz lines and their more complicated chord progressions make the "path" of the line a lot easier to see for me.

I think moving forward I just I'm gonna have to really memorize chord patterns to the point where I know them as well as scales (if not better cause I'm still working on that 2 :P) and like BillyRay mentioned come up with a few aces up my sleeve, varied little interesting licks to play here and there to break things up and indicate some of the chord changes.

Also can anyone point me to some information about how the modes pertain to bass playing...I understand that dorian is C major with D as the root ext... but how to I apply that directly to being a better bassist?...I ask because this guy I met once was like yeah this is a B7chord which means its in such and such a mode, its easy see...*and commences to tear "3:00 in the morning" a new one*

ohh and I decided I'm not gonna sit around and rely on a guitarist to hand me chord progressions, so if anyone knows of a good reference for more advanced chord theory besides I- IV -V and the basic stuff like D, E and A are minor in the key of C, that would be great too.

Thanks,
Chris

The "modes" are just scales of a given key that start on a different scale "degree." For example, "dorian" mode basically means playing a C-major scale, starting on D (the ii scale degree). Mixolydian is just a C-major scale that starts on G (the V scale degree). The modes then expand to encompass the harmonic and melodic minor.

Several players have recommended 12-bar blues as a good starting point for developing bass lines. I would go a step further and suggest that you practice the 12-bar blues in EVERY key. Bass players who tend to come from a rock background can often feel comfortable in keys like D-major, or G-major, but can often get lost when asked to play in Db. Heck, I even had a student once, who had been playing bass for 20 years and didn't even know where Db's were located on his instrument.

[DudeistMonk]

Mixolydian is just a C-major scale that starts on G (the V scale degree). The modes then expand to encompass the harmonic and melodic minor.

I get that part, just fine...I can play the modes tell you what they are ext. but how to do I use that in writing bass lines?

[51m0n]

Well if you look at a major scale the chords come out like this:-

I ii iii IV V7 vi vii(dim)

So if someone is playing a ii V I progression that ii chord can be arpegiated as a m7 or you can use the Dorian mode (m7 with a M6 in it) and stay completely in the tonic key. You could just use a minor scale but the 6th would be a half step out and may be dissonant against the melody.

Its essentially more options and flavours, after all if you take all the chromatic and blue notes in basslines you end up pretty much with an any note can work if it fits with the ones around it and the rhythm of the song etc.

Unfortunately learning what fits _when_ is the trick, and its generally best to start learning all the consonant notes against a chord rather than the disonant ones.

Sounds like you are going in the right direction. Pay special attention to arpeggios and inversions to be able to add spice, and as said above rhythmic variation is every bit as much a way of changing the flavour of a b-line as harmonic/melodic.

[51m0n]

My other tip would be get Gary Willis' Bass Harmony book, it is a real gem, but hard graft....

[DudeistMonk]

I think I get it...In the Key of C the ii is Dmin7 is D-F-A-C and if I was to fill in the blanks and still be in the key of C I would have the Dorian mode D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

What did I really learn there though...that i can use a B an E and a G and not clash with anything? Didn't I already know that since I'm in the key of C? So this is only useful for non-diatonic harmonies?

[MarkTAW]

Here's an exercise I posted in another thread which may be useful in learning the notes for different chords. It's based on the one-octave major scale form, but once you see what's going on, can be easily adapted to the minor scale or a two octave form.

(A two-octave form is where by the time you hit the octave, your hand is repositioned so that your middle finger is playing the octave note, and you're ready to repeat the pattern for another octave.)

 G       Am      Bm      C       D       Em      F#dim   G
|-------|-------|-------|-------|-----2-|-----4-|---2-5-|---4-7-|
|-------|-----2-|-----7-|---5-7-|---4---|-2-5---|-4-----|-5-----|
|---5-7-|---3---|-2-5---|-3-----|-5-----|-------|-------|-------|
|-3-----|-5-----|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|

Modes aren't "just" scales that start on other notes in the major/minor system. Modes actually pre-date the major/minor system by a few centuries - Medieval church modes existed long before the major/minor system, but for your purposes, "a mode is just a scale that begins on a note other than I or VI" works.

I think I get it...In the Key of C the ii is Dmin7 is D-F-A-C and if I was to fill in the blanks and still be in the key of C I would have the Dorian mode D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

No. The Mode is the Key. If you're in the key of C major, you're in the key of C Major. If you're in the key of D dorian, you're in the key of D dorian. Just because you're playing a d minor chord in the Key of C doesn't mean you're in D dorian.

The safest notes to play are the ones in the chord you're playing. Just before switching to the next chord, you can frequently find a good note that LEADS into that chord.

A good note for this is the 7th of the chord you're about to play, the appropriately named "leading tone" of that chord. Another good one is the 5th because it's a "perfect cadence" - that is, the 5 always wants to go to 1.

In brief - the best notes to play are the ones in the chord that you're currently playing, or at least in the key you're in & related to the chord you're currently playing (like the 6th I pointed out earlier).

You can also toy with various PASSING and LEADING tones to move from one chord to another. A passing tone is a note that's not perfectly in the key you're in or perfectly in either chord, but works to connect them. A leading tone is simply that - it leads into the next chord.

[DudeistMonk]

First off thanks for all the effort, the charts and the explanations, I really appreciate it. Let me just make sure I have this then...

Instead of writing a Song is C Ionian I could write it in D Dorian which would cause my I Chord to become Dm, my IV chord to be Gmaj ext.

So when I see no sharps or flats next to the clef and the first chord is Dminor chances are I'm in Dorian.

[Alan Vorse]

I say don't do either.

How good is your ear? Can you sing a major and minor scale?Listen to the chords being played without playing anything yourself. Listen several times. eventually you will HEAR the line that works best for the chord progression.

[DudeistMonk]

How good is your ear? Can you sing a major and minor scale?Listen to the chords being played without playing anything yourself. Listen several times. eventually you will HEAR the line that works best for the chord progression.

Yeah well naturally, thats something I' working on... I had skills breakthrough a few months ago where I feel like I went from having decent technique and reading ability and nothing else for 5 years to actually having a sense of what sounds good and what I'm doing...

I can listen to a CD and try to play along, when I check it against a tab or a fake book sometimes I miss a note or two (the stereo in the basement is not nearly as bassey as the one in my car :P) and sometimes I'm in the completely wrong key. Then again sometimes I'm right on or damn close.

This is a new skill for me though and I feel like I'm just guessing at the key half the time, and if I do something like the ear training machine on activebass.com I can't get a single note right, which makes me think I'm fooling myself.

As for singing scales I can humm the intervals and make my tuner move up a note at a time, but if I try to humm a C it comes out on my tuner as like an E. I regret not taking chorus in HS, I thought my band teacher was just looking to fill out his skimpy chorus, but I shoulda just done it.

Long and short of it is I think I'm making good progress toward having good ears but I'm not quite there yet.

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

First off thanks for all the effort, the charts and the explanations, I really appreciate it. Let me just make sure I have this then...

Instead of writing a Song is C Ionian I could write it in D Dorian which would cause my I Chord to become Dm, my IV chord to be Gmaj ext.

So when I see no sharps or flats next to the clef and the first chord is Dminor chances are I'm in Dorian.

No, chances are the song doesn't start on the root. Very few songs are written in the Dorian mode, and most musicians faced with that sheet music wouldn't know what to do with it. 99.9% of songs are written in either the major or minor key (with a few variations on the minor key - harmonic minor, etc.).

To find a song in the Dorian mode you'd have to either find some real guitar geeks (or jazz geeks or keyboard geeks) or go back to medieval chants...

Wikipedia confirms my suspicion:

Notable compositions in Dorian mode

* "Along Comes Mary" by The Association
* "So What" by Miles Davis
* "In the Presence of Enemies" by Dream Theater