Lingo 101- "Playing against the back-beat"?

[mjw]

Quick question for the board. Generally speaking, what does it mean when someone refers to "playing against the back-beat"? Thanks!

Mike

[JimK]

I'm assuming you're thinkin' the backbeat = beats 2 & 4 in 4/4?

I know certain backbeat/Funk/R&B drummers will shift or displace where they put the snare. They may move the snare just forward(a of 1, a of 3) &/or just behind(e of 2, e of 4) where you'd think it 'normally' falls...this + the rest of the band playing 'normally' gives the illusion of tension("playing against"?).
Another way is playing in 1/2 time...you may hear certain drum parts where the snare is hitting on "3"...try counting slower(in 1/2 time)& you may be surprised to find the snare is still on "2" & "4".
Try hearing a ride cymbal in yer head goin' /1-2-3-4/1-2-3-4/ etc with a snare on the "2" & "4". Then attempt hearing the same ride pattern but with the snare ONLY on "3"...feel different?

A bassist can do the same thing(can play in 1/2 time or doubletime vs. the group's 'normal' time).

A displacement exercise-
For Ss & Gs, play one of your favorite 1-bar figures...now attempt playing the same figure BUT begin the figure on, say, the & of 1. This shifts "your 1" to everyone else's "& of 1". If you want a specific example, e-mail me...hope ya have a drum machine.

Also, a bassist might play 'off' by thinking in a different timeline.
4/4(w/ 1/16th note subdivisons)-
/1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a/

6/8-
/1&2&3&4&5&6&/1&2&3&4&5&6&/ etc

Doin' this puts makes your phrasing 'different' &, possibly, pits you against the 'normal' 2 & 4.
Basically, it's polyrhythmic.
Some good exercises, IMO, are tapping out 4/4 in one hand vs. tapping out 3/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4 with the other hand. Both hands should tap together on the ONE...meaning each bar in itself is complete, no crossing the bar as in the above 4/4 vs. 6/8 example.

...I'm rambiln', sorry & I've probably cofused you even more.
Where's Ed, Dave, & Chris when ya need 'em?!

[dancehallclasher]

am i the only one that thinks profanity shouldn't be edited in ed's case?

[mjw]

Thanks for the info everyone. Actually, I was quoting "Alexis Sklarevski" in the context of "developing a feel for playing against the back-beat which is especially important in funk music".

He mentioned this in his video, and I was trying to understand what he meant. Thanks again!

Mike

[JimK]

...thanks, Ed.
(Great, great line: "...it's like talking to a choreographer"! I love that!)

There's different ways of "locking"(or so I've been told)...I'm assuming playing against someone else's time/rhythmic figure(via metric modulation, polyrhythms, etc) can be used as those means.
That originals' band I was in(more 'workshop' than 'working band')tried to pull off warped s*** like this...best example that comes to mind are those '70s/'80s Rock-Jazz Miles' groups(Panagea, Star People, etc).
Not sure if f***ing up the feel was what we were goin' fer. Then again, maybe the scarcity of gigs shoulda clued us in, huh?

Nice limmerick, too!
...man!

[JimK]

Mike-
..how 'bout e-mailing Alex S so he can 'splain what the .... he meant!

[mjw]

Time to find A.S.'s email address, I guess... :-)

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by mjw
Thanks for the info everyone. Actually, I was quoting "Alexis Sklarevski" in the context of "developing a feel for playing against the back-beat which is especially important in funk music".

He mentioned this in his video, and I was trying to understand what he meant. Thanks again!

Mike

Doesn't he just mean that - OK in some funk tunes you have a pretty simple, straightforward backbeat on the drums, but that doesn't mean that as teh bass player, you have to play along with it squarely. So you can play "against" it, with offbeats and tying notes across a two bar pattern - all sort of things, but actually playing "with" it, is just going to lead to a dull line that isn't really funky?

Are we looking for something too subtle/complex here?