Looking for Diminished scale/chord info

[jrklmx(Andrew)]

I rarely play over diminished chords

There just 1 b3 b5 b7 right?

The same as a m7b5 chord?

If you change the root note in a diminished chord down a half step does it then become a maj7 chord?
If I played a diminished scale
would it be
1, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, 7 ?

for instance G
G A Bb C C# D# E F?

Please help!

[BigOldHarry]

I'm not sure what you're asking for - it seems like you have it sorted out to me.

[JTE]

Diminished is all minor thirds, so it's 1, b3, b5, and bb7. That's a double flatted 7 (enharmonic equivalent of the 6), not a b7. C Eb Gb Bbb.

Because of the symetrical nature of its construction (all minor thirds) any note in it can function as the root, and it can pivot to other places because of that.

I don't think in terms of scales for individual chords, but look at the chord tones. Look at the chord in terms of what's before it, what's after it, and then you'll find the notes that make sense for a bass line under the diminished chord. For example, | C | C#dim | Dmin7 | seems pretty clear.

Those chord tones are CEG, C# E G B#bb (or enharmonically that 7 is Bb), and DFAC. I'd play with the C to C# to D root motion, and if there's time with the changes, and space within the harmony, perhaps hint at the movement from C down to the A of the D- or even make that C a Cmaj7 with the B going to Bb to A.

John

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by jrklmx(Andrew)

I rarely play over diminished chords

There just 1 b3 b5 b7 right?

The same as a m7b5 chord?

If you change the root note in a diminished chord down a half step does it then become a maj7 chord?
If I played a diminished scale
would it be
1, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, 7 ?

for instance G
G A Bb C C# D# E F?

Please help!

diminished or half diminished.....minor 7 b5 is a half dim.........dim bb7........if you look at the dim you see that there are 3 combinations.if you start on Adim the intervals will also give you Cdim Eb dim and Gb dim.........

half dim are built from the seventh note of the major scale,and i believe diminished is from a whole step half step or half step whole step scale.....but there are guys out there that know this stuff backwards and they would probably be a better source than me.....and he appears above

[black.rose1402]

take don mock books, it's for guitar but they explain really well these concepts.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by jrklmx(Andrew)

I rarely play over diminished chords

There just 1 b3 b5 b7 right?

The same as a m7b5 chord?

If you change the root note in a diminished chord down a half step does it then become a maj7 chord?
If I played a diminished scale
would it be
1, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, 7 ?

for instance G
G A Bb C C# D# E F?

Please help!

No, it's not the same as a m7b5.

A diminished triad is 1 b3 b5.

A diminished 7th chord, which is probably what most people mean when they say "diminished," is 1 b3 b5 bb7. So a Cdim7 would be C Eb Gb Bbb, whereas a Cm7b5 would be C Eb Gb Bb.

The diminished scale you mention is one of two commonly used diminished scales, commonly referred to as "whole-half" and "half-whole" after the order in which the intervals between the notes go.

Naming the scale degrees gets tricky because you end up having to repeat one of the scale degree numbers, and you can't make all the notes exactly accurate for every one of the chords built from the various degrees. You notice that for every scale degree, the 7th chord built on it is a diminished 7th, but you have to fudge the enharmonic equivalencies to get the note names right.

Whole-half diminished scale from G:

G A Bb C Db Eb E(Fb) F#(Gb) G

Half-whole diminished scale from G:

G Ab Bb B(Cb) Db D(Ebb) E(Fb) F(Gbb) G

Gdim7 = G Bb Db Fbb
Abdim7 = Ab Cb EbG Gbb
Adim7 = A C Eb Gb
Bbdim7 = Bb Db Fb Abb

And so forth.

[Chris K]

Dear Andrew,

A diminished chord would be 1 b3 b5 bb7: example: C Eb Gb Bbb (= A)
There are only three different dimished chords, because the dim chord stacks minor thirds. So after Cdim C#dim and Ddim, Ebdim sounds just like Cdim again. However, the dim chord is to be named after the bass note!!!!!!

The m7b5 chord (example C Eb Gb Bb) is called a half-diminished (half-dim) chord. So theý're different.

Lowering the root note by a half step (from C Eb Gb Bbb, or C D# F# A) would create a dominant seventh chord (so not a maj7): B - D# - F# - A.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_(music)

As for the diminished SCALE I would comment that it is very common to use one of the two so-called octotonic (eight-notes) scales:
whole step - half step - whole step etc.
(the other octotonic scale would be half step -whole step -half step; it is less common to play that over a diminished chord, because if you play whole step -half step etc. the half steps work as approach notes to the chord notes of the dim chord).

Have fun!

[jrklmx(Andrew)]

Thanks!! You guys are very helpful!
Half-Diminished (Symbol: diminished with a slash through it)
A half-diminished 7th chord = minor 7b5.
Diminished is all minor thirds, so it's 1, b3, b5, and bb7. That's a double flatted 7 (enharmonic equivalent of the 6),
a Cdim7 would be C Eb Gb Bbb,(A)

[EADG mx]

The dim7 chord forms from sharpening the subtonic in a minor key. So the VII7 chord in a minor key becomes #viio7 (in A minor, G7 becomes G#dim7).

You could also view G#dim7 as E7(b9) without it's root.


To modulate via a dim7 chord, take your target chord and proceed it by a dim7th chord a half step lower. So G#dim7 moves to A (major or minor), Bdim7 moves to C (major or minor).

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

The dim7 chord forms from sharpening the leading tone in a minor key. So the VII7 chord in a minor key becomes #viio7 (in A minor, G7 becomes G#dim7).

By definition, if you raise a leading tone, you get the root. A leading tone is a half-step below the root. The 7th, in a minor key, is a whole step below the root.

[EADG mx]

Sorry.

Raise the subtonic.

[PaulNYC]

look at this

[251]

Originally Posted by jrklmx(Andrew)

I rarely play over diminished chords

There just 1 b3 b5 b7 right?

The same as a m7b5 chord?

If you change the root note in a diminished chord down a half step does it then become a maj7 chord?
If I played a diminished scale
would it be
1, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, 7 ?

for instance G
G A Bb C C# D# E F?

Please help!

There are just 2 Diminished scales; WH & HW. That is Whole/Half & Half Whole, which describe the intervals between notes in terms of Half notes & Whole notes.

According to Mark Sabatella's, "A Whole Approach to Jazz Improvization", pg 37: If the root note is C the chord that goes with WH is Cdim7. If the root note is C the chord that goes with HW could be named C7b9b5 or C7b9.

They are scales therefore; changing a note may change the scale, you can think in terms of modes of the scale, you can often give the scales different names, you can often find chords with unrelated names that work well with the scale, you can learn the scale as notes on a staff, positions on a tab diagram, patterns on the fretboard, intervals on the fretboard ... What works for you?

As you note, Diminished scales don't come up that often. I have a little voice in my head, that sounds like my music teacher saying "Simplify. Simplify. Simplify." Find an easy way to deal with Diminished and learn it well so you can move on.

[fourstringburn]

If you change the root note in a diminished chord down a half step does it then become a maj7 chord?
If I played a diminished scale
would it be
1, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, 7 ?

for instance G
G A Bb C C# D# E F?

Please help!

To answer your question in simpler terms...No! If you lower the root or any one of the notes in a diminished seventh a half step, you get a dominant seventh chord ( Root 3rd 5th b7th ), not a major seventh. ( root 3rd 5th 7th )

For example, take a C diminished seventh, C Eb Gb A ( root, b3rd, b5th, bb7 ) and lower the first note a half step, and you get a B dominant 7th = B Eb Gb A
Now lower the 2nd note a half step in the C diminished and you get a D dominant 7th = C D Gb A (in it's fourth inversion starting on C)
Lower the 3rd note and you"ll get a F dominant 7th (in it's 3rd inversion starting on C)

See how it works! If you notice, the note the gets lowered a half step becomes the root of that dominate 7th chord.

So with that in mind, If you lower the last note in the C diminished chord, what chord will you have?

Augmented chords are similar in this aspect except lowering any note a half step becomes a major chord.
Yes, diminished chords and also augmented chords are symmetrical as other posters wrote. You can invert these chords and the root of each inversion becomes that chords name.
I hope that helps!

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by jrklmx(Andrew)

I rarely play over diminished chords

There just 1 b3 b5 b7 right?

The same as a m7b5 chord?

If you change the root note in a diminished chord down a half step does it then become a maj7 chord?
If I played a diminished scale
would it be
1, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, 7 ?

for instance G
G A Bb C C# D# E F?

Please help!

Like several TB's pointed out the diminushed chord is 1 b3 b5 and bb7.
Each notes of that chord is an inversion of each other. Co7,Ebo7,Gbo7 or F#o7 and,Ao7.

If you drop the root of the chord ,it becomes a dominant chord.
Very often on a V7 to I min you can play the third in the bass on the V7 and you are in fact imposing a diminushed chord a half-step below the root instead of a V to I.

Example : A7(b9) to D. If you play C# on the A7 ,it becomes a C#o7 chord (C#,E,G and Bb)
.
This is why the use of a diminushed scale is very practical over dominant chords x7(b9). Just play the diminushed scale WH a half-step above the root of the dominant chord (play C# dim. scale over C7). You can of course play the same scale but starting on C instead and you'll have the HW construction of that scale which is EXACTLY the same scale starting on a different note.

Hope this helps,

Sly