Looking for some tips on jazz soloing

CaptainKY · #1 02-03-2008, 02:34 PM

I've been doing a jazz combo for a while now, and I can hold down a walking bassline decently, but every time I solo I always end up reverting to my rock roots and rocking out the pentatonic blues scale or running triads and seventh arpeggios. It's fun but I'd like to "jazz" up my soloing a little. I'm currently in my second year of music theory, and have a decent understanding of modes and the like.

I always thought it would be interesting to develop a "sheets of sound" style ala Coltrane. Any tips or knowledge of what modes/arpeggios/etc. Coltrane used to achieve this sound? Other advice?

bottomend! · #2 02-03-2008, 03:26 PM

A healthy dose of scale sequences and chromatic approach notes would fit the bill perfectly.

bottomend! · #3 02-03-2008, 03:46 PM

hey, heres a personal story I can share with you about Coltane and "sheets of sound"...

I was studying with a teacher and I basically asked him the same exact question as you. I wanted to "break out" and get into "real" jazz playing. He started me on his scale sequence regiment. Every week I would go back and he would check something off the list. Slowly but surely I was making a little progress.

After about 6-7 weeks he told me that he'd never had a student progress through the lessons as fast as I had and as a reward he said he'd take me to lunch. So after that days lesson, he took me to eat something. As we were sitting down and eating, I was asking him about his playing history ect and where he got his teaching material from.
He said that the scale sequences came from a night he spent at a club in NYC as a teen ager. He had seen a musician play and it blew his mind listening to him rip all over his instrument. He has no idea where all the notes were coming from but he had to find out so, after the set, he went downstairs into the dressing room and asked the guy if it was ok to ask him some questions, the guy said no problem and spent the next hour explaining what he was doing. The musician was John Coltrane and the inquisitor was Herb Mickman.

When he told me that story I almost gagged on my chicken. I couldn't believe that I was basically getting info that was only two degrees of separation from the man himself! Knowing that just made me work all the harder. Being part of such an esteemed chain of musicians can only raise ones respect for THE MUSIC.

So, if you wanna know about the sequences just ask. All I ask is that you work hard and be respectful of were the info came from.

thombo · #4 02-03-2008, 04:00 PM

cool anecdote! respectfully, can you share the sequences? or do you prefer private responses?

HaVIC5 · #5 02-03-2008, 05:06 PM

The most direct way the majority of jazz musicians develop the "jazz sound" is by transcribing. Forget advanced concepts like sheets of sounds, grab a Miles Davis record and learn all of the solos. You'd be surprised how the simple act of learning somebody else's solo betters your own.

ez135 · #6 02-03-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thombo

cool anecdote! respectfully, can you share the sequences? or do you prefer private responses?

+1 !

bottomend! · #7 02-03-2008, 05:36 PM

cant argue with Havic on that one but in defense of the scale sequences I was taught, they are extremely important to develop the technique required to pull off playing the stuff you've just transcribe from record.

And yea, if you wanna know the sequences, I'd be happy to show them to you via email. Coltrane showed them to Herb, Herb showed em to me, and I'll show them to you. It cost me alot of $$$ in lessons, but heck if you're into it, thats cool with me. I'm pretty broke these days but whatever....

black.rose1402 · #8 02-03-2008, 05:40 PM

can you please send it to me too????that would be great !!!!I'd love to try to learn that!!!

bottomend! · #9 02-03-2008, 05:55 PM

I've received alot of response to this post in my PM box. thanks. Lemme figure out how many people want these and I'll then determine how best to present them. I didn't think I'd get this many responses to my little story. Heck I figured it would've just been the one guy who initially asked. I've never taught via the web so I'm not set up for that. I have all the material but it's on paper, also, it was presented to me in a codified from from Herb so in a sense, it may belong to him... any lawyers out there know about this kind of thing?

Showing them to one or two people is one thing but I dont wanna cross any lines that shouldn't be crossed.

It's it's totality, there is ALOT of information here. Taken piecemeal, it can still be useful, but to gain full advantage of the material requires some serious commitment and work.

bottomend! · #10 02-03-2008, 06:08 PM

ok, the phone is ringing off the hook....

For the people who want these things, please PM me and tell me IN DETAIL your ablility level. These sequences may be waaay too advanced for you or they may be too elementary for you... I dont know enough about each individual just by sitting here reading this thread.

I still need to figure out if I can even show them to this many people or not. I dont wanna step on any toes here....

ez135 · #11 02-04-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bottomend!

I still need to figure out if I can even show them to this many people or not. I dont wanna step on any toes here....

Could Mr. Mickman write a book about that great stuff?

bottomend! · #12 02-04-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ez135

Could Mr. Mickman write a book about that great stuff?

Well, he kinda already did. He used to write a column for GP back in the 70's and early eighties where he would introduce some of this stuff in his articals.

Ive been receiving PM's fro people wanting "the page of sequences" it's not just one page guys... it's more like 40!

damianerskine · #13 02-04-2008, 09:52 PM

In my experience, the best way to learn solo over changes is to approach changes from every possible angle. A lot of the scaler sequences are what Todd Johnson speaks of in his "Ask a Pro" Forum.

I generally have students begin this stuff by:
1- learning all of their modes
2- Learn all of the practical chord shapes for every type of chord
3- work through a tune every week (or 2) and do the following
4- PLay through the tune at a number of different tempos and:
- Play every arpeggio in time in 1st inversion, then 2nd, 3rd
- PLay through the chords (in all inversions if you really want to go for it)
- Practice walking through the tune
5 - NOW work on soloing and you'll see how all of the work you've done pays off... You'll see each chord from any number of angles (not just from the root) and every time you play off of a chord and it's inversions, you may notice ways to extend your line off the extensions from the next chord, leading to another inversion of the next chord, etc...

the key is to then introduce melodic and rhythmic phrasing so it doesn't sound like....exercises and scales.

You can also try something like soloing in groups of 3 or 4 note phrases only using the 9 and 7 of each chord, for example.

Stuff like that can really open your ears (by limiting your note choices, you force yourself to really think about the chords and the way you phrase things).

and, of course, transcribe! But, don't just figure out the notes and write them down, look and the scaler patterns in relation to the chords, look at the shapes of the phrases, look at the melodic patterns, etc...
Try and get inside the head of the soloist you are transcribing.

Jazz is hard. You also have to listen to a lot of jazz to really internalize the feel. I've never been a great straight ahead soloist because it's not my thing, and that's what it is. BUT all of that work has really paid off in every other way possible (and I can get through a tune pretty darn well, it's just not an authentic sound I create to my ears).
This is the real meat-and-potatoes of it all. Do this stuff and your harmonic and soloistic world will inevitably open further in some way.

Hope someone gets something out of that!

damianerskine · #14 02-04-2008, 09:57 PM

Quick note on infringing on your old teachers lessons by explaining them to people. People don't own knowledge! If you photocopy his actual BOOK and give it out, that's an infringement. The knowledge is exactly that and I don't imagine your teacher would ever ask you to not repeat what he teaches you to anyone.
I certainly wouldn't stress over that.

bottomend! · #15 02-04-2008, 10:03 PM

Hey Damian! I ran into you and Todd at the Zon Booth a couple of weeks back at NAMM. I was the guy with the yellow glasses and longish hair... You were playing some very cool harmonics and I just had to find out what you were doing!

Great advice here BTW.

The stuff DE just wrote will not be easy nor will it happen over night. Heck, just learning all the chord shapes over the entire neck can sometimes consume a year!

There really are no shortcuts and as soon as a person understands that, they can get down to doing the work and let the issues of being on a time schedule fade away.

bottomend! · #16 02-04-2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damianerskine

Quick note on infringing on your old teachers lessons by explaining them to people. People don't own knowledge! If you photocopy his actual BOOK and give it out, that's an infringement. The knowledge is exactly that and I don't imagine your teacher would ever ask you to not repeat what he teaches you to anyone.
I certainly wouldn't stress over that.

Thanks. I've used alot of what ALL my teachers have taught me over the millenium, but I guess because it's always been in the context of either the classroom or private lessons, and that just made it feels more legitimate somehow. I've never taught in cyber space but this has got me considering the idea.

damianerskine · #17 02-05-2008, 02:25 AM

Hey, yeah!
nice to put a face with a virtual existence!

Teaching online is an interesting and very satisfying avenue... there is SO much information available and it's fun to dip into the pool. I dig it and there are so many people that appreciate every little tid-bit. Although I enjoy teaching one on one, it is especially satisfying to post lessons that so many people will think is useful!
Fun stuff....

See you again soon!

bottomend! · #18 02-05-2008, 04:28 AM

cool. I had to come clean and "show myself". It's a little creepy otherwise, right!?

ez135 · #19 02-13-2008, 09:41 PM

Any news yet regarding the posting of the material?

bassness · #20 02-13-2008, 10:14 PM

I remember those Herb Mickman columns from Guitar Player Magazine. I was just getting started then and wanted to rock more than run through boring scale exercises. I guess I should have saved those issues as it sounds like it would really benefit me now.