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 lneal 10-10-2013 10:50 PM

Lydian #2

Okay, I'm working through the harmonic minor modes and I'm not getting this one. The arpeggio(s) for the 6th harmonic minor mode (Lydian #2) that I can derive from it seem to be the same as ones from other modes, i.e., there's a full-diminished arpeggio, m(maj7), as well as the straight Lydian. I can only find a little about this on the 'net and virtually nothing about harmonic minor mode arpeggios. If I try to squeeze in all the chord tones it's more like a scale than an arpeggio. What am I missing here??

 markjsmithbass 10-11-2013 03:18 AM

Not fully sure what you're getting at. The tonic arpeggio for the Lydian #2 will be a maj7 just like the normal Lydian. If you extend it you end up with a #9, #11 and natural 13. Don't think I've ever heard a fully extended Maj13#9#11 chord but that is what you'd get and yes, that would be every note of the scale included in the chord. Once you extend to the 13th (triad, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th) all notes of the scale are used.

As for your question about deriving other arpeggios from the scale, I'm assuming you mean building arpeggios from every other note of the scale. You are correct that they will be the same as arpeggios from other modes of the harmonic minor because that's exactly what they are. When learning the modes of the minor scales, don't worry about learning arpeggios from every note of each one because they will just be the same as the sequence of arpeggios through the harmonic minor scale. But obviously starting at a different point.
Just learn the modes and the tonic arpeggios. The arpeggios are worth learning from each degree of the harmonic minor scale mainly because it tells you which diatonic chords are available.

Here are the modes, triads and 7th chords of the Harmonic Minor:
I - Harmonic Minor - Minor - m(Maj7)
II - Locrian Nat 6 (Locrian #6)- Diminished - m7b5
III - Ionian Augmented (Ionian #5) - Augmented - Maj7#5
IV - Dorian #11 (Dorian #4) - Minor - m7
V - Phrygian Dominant (Phrygian #3)- Major - 7
VI - Lydian #9 (Lydian #2) - Major - Maj7
VII - Ultralocrian (Mixolydian #1) - Diminished - Dim7

If you build arpeggios and modes from the Lydian #2 you will have exactly the same sequence as above but starting at the 6th degree. Seventh chords would be I - Maj7, II - Dim7, III - m(Maj7) etc.

I suspect that is what you were getting at.

Mark

 lneal 10-11-2013 06:50 AM

Thanks Mark, your reply is very helpful. I suspected that it would be just a maj7 arpeggio, just wasn't sure. Other notes from the chord could be used in a solo situation I suppose. The method book I'm using, "Serious Electric Bass" does cover harmonic minor modes but not in depth, except for the 5th mode, so I didn't have any explicit instruction on what the arpeggios are. Thank you very much, Mark.

 markjsmithbass 10-11-2013 10:31 AM

If you want some patterns for those scales and a bunch of others, I've just written a quick reference manual of scales and stuck it up over at www.talkingbass.net. It's free when you sign up to the newsletter (I know, I know, another newsletter). If you don't want to stay signed up just unsubscribe after but if you're interested in learning some more theory stuff etc. then it might be worth subscribing anyway because I'm doing a load of music theory video lessons and articles. You'll get updates when I release them.

I know that sounds like a bit of a sell for the newsletter but it does seem topical and I'm wondering how people will take to the book. It's a taster for the big study book I'm writing at the moment. That will be something you might like because it's got loads and loads of practice exercises and tips on covering the whole neck.

Mark

 Groove Master 10-11-2013 01:49 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by lneal (Post 14978505) Okay, I'm working through the harmonic minor modes and I'm not getting this one. The arpeggio(s) for the 6th harmonic minor mode (Lydian #2) that I can derive from it seem to be the same as ones from other modes, i.e., there's a full-diminished arpeggio, m(maj7), as well as the straight Lydian. I can only find a little about this on the 'net and virtually nothing about harmonic minor mode arpeggios. If I try to squeeze in all the chord tones it's more like a scale than an arpeggio. What am I missing here??
To me the most important and useful modes from the minor harmonic scale are the I, the II and the V which gives us the basic II-V-I in minor.

So I would see the VI mode more as an inversion of the II mode: Dmi7(b5)/Ab or the G7(b9) starting on the b9. Also the VII mode would be the V mode with the third in the bass like this G7(b9)/B.

Hope this helps ;-)

 lneal 10-11-2013 02:49 PM

Yea, GM, the "Serious Electric Bass" book only covers the 5th mode and the harmonic minor scale itself. It is, however a great book and has helped me tremendously. Even though we'll not likely see most of the tonic chords produced by the harmonic minor series in real world situations, I was thinking that the remaining modes would give some cool melodic interpretations in a solo situation. Thanks for the answers guys and keep the ideas coming....:cool:

 lneal 10-11-2013 02:50 PM

BTW Mark, I signed up!

 Spin Doctor 10-11-2013 03:46 PM

I signed up too, but when I tried to download the e book from the link I was sent, it said the file is damaged and cannot be repaired.

 markjsmithbass 10-11-2013 04:08 PM

Give me a second. I'll check it out.

 markjsmithbass 10-11-2013 04:14 PM

Hmm. I just tried the link and it worked fine. If anyone else has had a problem let me know. SpinDoctor, try the link again from the email and tell me if it still gives you problems.

Mark

 Spin Doctor 10-11-2013 05:43 PM

Tried the link again and still no go for me... It does try to download, but that message pops up and then the file just disappears.

 Groove Master 10-11-2013 06:12 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by lneal (Post 14981215) Yea, GM, the "Serious Electric Bass" book only covers the 5th mode and the harmonic minor scale itself. It is, however a great book and has helped me tremendously. Even though we'll not likely see most of the tonic chords produced by the harmonic minor series in real world situations, I was thinking that the remaining modes would give some cool melodic interpretations in a solo situation. Thanks for the answers guys and keep the ideas coming....:cool:
The best harmonic vocabulary you can get is from the minor harmonic scale itself. Also it is important to note that in most cases, the Aeolian mode (major scale) will sound as good if not better because of the blue note it will produce over the dominant chord ;-)

For more vocabulary you should study the modes of the melodic minor scale instead.

 markjsmithbass 10-11-2013 06:14 PM

Try right clicking (on windows) and Save Link As... so you can save the file to your computer. Then open it from there. If it doesn't download it then there's something weird going on. Is anybody else having this problem?

Mark

 lneal 10-11-2013 08:04 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Groove Master (Post 14982015) The best harmonic vocabulary you can get is from the minor harmonic scale itself. Also it is important to note that in most cases, the Aeolian mode (major scale) will sound as good if not better because of the blue note it will produce over the dominant chord ;-) For more vocabulary you should study the modes of the melodic minor scale instead.
I went thru the melodic minor series and you are right about there being more useful stuff there. The method book I mentioned had an in depth treatment of it. FWIW aeolian mode is very cool :)

 markjsmithbass 10-12-2013 02:19 AM

+1 to Groove Master's suggestion. The Harmonic Minor is good to learn for learning chords in a general minor key. Melodic Minor modes better for soloing and melodic material. Particularly jazz. Superlocrian mode (7th mode) is good over dominant 7 chords. You often see it described as Melodic Minor a half step above the chord.

Mark

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