which m7 ....? Noob question alert.

[billoetjen]

First, don't shoot me; I'm just trying to find out.


Trying with all the capacity remaining in my 51 year old brain to learn to walk.
Modes/scales, chords, etc. are all in place for me.

I'm having most difficulty now with the shorthand notation I see in different sources.

Example: Kris Berg's "Basslines in minutes."
Great and straightforward hand-holding that I needed.

BUT, in some places he shows a descending scale walk on the staff that is labeled "mi7" and has minor 6th and 7th. In other places the chord labelled "mi7" has a descending scale walk with just the minor 7th.
How am I supposed to know just from looking at the chord label whether to use a Natural Minor scale (aeolian mode in the first case) or use the Dorian scale/mode (in the second case)?

I don't think I'm very stupid, but am I missing something really, really basic here? This confusion is NOT HELPING me. Please to explain.

[Chris K]

Certanly no stupid question. It's a question many players should have asked.

The bass will generally follow the scale of the central key of the piece.

In major keys, the bass follows the scale of the key of the piece. So: going downward on Dm7 chord, you will get the note B (natural 6 to Dm) in all keys where B is in the principal scale, so, in this case, the key of C and all keys with sharps in the key signature. It plays Bb in all keys with flats.

In minor keys, the bass follows the melodic minor scale OF THE PIECE, NOT OF THAT SINGLE CHORD > natural 6th and 7th going up, minor 6th and 7th going down.

If the piece is based on a mode, like Dorian - and again I mean the entire piece, you follow the central Dorian scale of the piece. F.e. in a piece in D Dorian Dm will get B, but, and please do pay attention here, Am will get F, not F#.

All of this in general. Taste is always the bottom line.

Good luck!

[MalcolmAmos]

Interesting....... Am7 will get F. As Am is the relative minor of C. I would never have picked that up.

Are you making a decision about using a chord tone or a mode over the Dm7 or Am7 chord? ---- I would not make the decision between using chord tones or modes based upon one measure. If I decided upon modes I would hope 1.) for the chord to be static for several measures. And 2.) I see no need in jumping between modes to match each chord. I'd pick a mood (one mode) and stick with it through out the piece.

Does that help or did I miss the point?

[slybass3000]

This is a great way to imply what is coming up by playing the descending tetrachord (4 diatonic notes) that is actually the ascencing tetrachord of the chord coming up.

By playing a F on the Amin7 you are preparing the sound of Dmin that has the F !

Just by itself the bass is always dictating the harmony coming up this way.

I LOVE DESCENDING BASSLINES BASED ON TETRACHORD !!!

[Phil Smith]

Amin7 in most cases is the ii of G Major and similiarly Dmin7 is the ii chord of C Major. You know this is true if you see any of these chords followed by a dominant chord i.e.

Amin7 D7 (share 2 notes in common A C E G , D F# A C)

Dmin7 G7 (see above)

The Amin7 example should probably A G F# E, since it's more than likely functioning as the ii chord which means it's G Major harmony not C Major harmony. If it was functioning as the vi chord it would be C Major harmony.

When you're walking you need to now all of the notes in the chord you're working with and be able to play their inversions in addition to knowing what the chord is functioning as i.e. what harmony is it operating in.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Interesting....... Am7 will get F. As Am is the relative minor of C. I would never have picked that up.

Are you making a decision about using a chord tone or a mode over the Dm7 or Am7 chord? ---- I would not make the decision between using chord tones or modes based upon one measure. If I decided upon modes I would hope 1.) for the chord to be static for several measures. And 2.) I see no need in jumping between modes to match each chord. I'd pick a mood (one mode) and stick with it through out the piece.

Does that help or did I miss the point?

I'm afraid you did, with all due respect. My choice of notes will never be decided by one measure, but by the key of the piece as a whole. I believe I wrote just that, but forgive me if I was unclear. I certainly didn't want to suggest you should jump between modes to match chords. On the contrary.

Basically, a first choice of bass notes is from the key scale. If you meet with f.e. one 4/4 bar of Am and the next bar is, let's say Em, then, in the key of F major, you might play A - Bb - C - D - E. In the key of D major however, A - B - C# - D - E would be logical.

In a minor key the same is true, but as I see a scale-like bass line as melodic elements, it will make a difference if my line moves up or down. I will take the melodic minor scale of the key of the piece into account.
So, going from Am to Em in the key of Em, I would see A -B - C# - D# - E as my first option, following the E melodic minor scale upward.

Finally, we might also be confronted with the need to walk from Am to Em in one of the modes when the entire piece is in that mode (a single chord can never force a mode on you). Let us assume the piece is in G mixolydian. Then my first thoughts would be for A -B - C - D - E (following the G mixolydian scale).

You will have noticed that all four of the above examples move from Am to Em in whole and half steps, but that they are all different, and the differences come from the key (or mode) of the entire piece.

Of course we also meet with cases where a clear tonal center is absent. In those cases you should always try to adapt your choice of notes to the rest of the music. If, f.e. in the melody there is an emphasis on the note B, it would be awkward to choose Bb (on the way from Am to Em in four beats). Previous or next chords might also help you choose. F.e if the chords go C - Am -Em, even though a tonal center is not present it is obvious that in this case B is more logical compared to Bb.

Hope this helps.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

When you're walking you need to now all of the notes in the chord you're working with and be able to play their inversions in addition to knowing what the chord is functioning as i.e. what harmony is it operating in.

Exactly.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Chris K

I'm afraid you did, with all due respect. My choice of notes will never be decided by one measure, but by the key of the piece as a whole. I believe I wrote just that, but forgive me if I was unclear. I certainly didn't want to suggest you should jump between modes to match chords. On the contrary.

Basically, a first choice of bass notes is from the key scale. If you meet with f.e. one 4/4 bar of Am and the next bar is, let's say Em, then, in the key of F major, you might play A - Bb - C - D - E. In the key of D major however, A - B - C# - D - E would be logical.

In a minor key the same is true, but as I see a scale-like bass line as melodic elements, it will make a difference if my line moves up or down. I will take the melodic minor scale of the key of the piece into account.
So, going from Am to Em in the key of Em, I would see A -B - C# - D# - E as my first option, following the E melodic minor scale upward.

Finally, we might also be confronted with the need to walk from Am to Em in one of the modes when the entire piece is in that mode (a single chord can never force a mode on you). Let us assume the piece is in G mixolydian. Then my first thoughts would be for A -B - C - D - E (following the G mixolydian scale).

You will have noticed that all four of the above examples move from Am to Em in whole and half steps, but that they are all different, and the differences come from the key (or mode) of the entire piece.

Of course we also meet with cases where a clear tonal center is absent. In those cases you should always try to adapt your choice of notes to the rest of the music. If, f.e. in the melody there is an emphasis on the note B, it would be awkward to choose Bb (on the way from Am to Em in four beats). Previous or next chords might also help you choose. F.e if the chords go C - Am -Em, even though a tonal center is not present it is obvious that in this case B is more logical compared to Bb.

Hope this helps.

But this won't help since in most jazz piece the harmony is moving around a lot even if the melody stays in one key.

The concept I explained earlier about the tetrachord is the strongest, efficient and simpler way of explaining the OP's question.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Exactly.

Just to provide a couple of examples of what Chris and Phil are saying, using the Amin7 chord:

In this example, the Amin7 is the ii7 in the key of G major, so an F# is appropriate:

G | Em | Amin7 | D7 | G

In this example, the Amin7 is the vi7 in the key of C, so an F natural is appropriate.

C | Amin7 | F | G7 | C

[slybass3000]

But they are referring to chord tones and not the scales. The example here is based on a scalar line not an arpeggio.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

But they are referring to chord tones and not the scales. The example here is based on a scalar line not an arpeggio.

Yes, but even the scaler line has a context. If the Amin7 is follwed by a D7 you have a scenario that wants to resolve to GMaj. Try to think more about the chordal relationships.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

Yes, but even the scaler line has a context. If the Amin7 is follwed by a D7 you have a scenario that wants to resolve to GMaj. Try to think more about the chordal relationships.

But that is beauty of the tetrachords. What if the Amin7 goes to D7 and to Gmin7 forming an hybrid ii-v-i? Thinking in term of tetrachord to go to the next chord is the best way to implies the harmony that is coming up.

Same if Amin7 goes to Eb7 for an example: If you play your usual dorian on Amin7 it won't bring the color of the Eb7 and the F# will clash in the whole phrase but if you use the tertrachord of Eb on Amin7 like this A-G-F-E to Eb (E is the passing tone for a smooth transition on beat 4) it will sound much better.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Chris K

I'm afraid you did, with all due respect. My choice of notes will never be decided by one measure, but by the key of the piece as a whole. I believe I wrote just that, but forgive me if I was unclear. I certainly didn't want to suggest you should jump between modes to match chords.

Yes you did. Sorry, my post did not mean to say otherwise. I was talking about the OP needs to take into account a little more than just those two chords, i.e. I was agreeing with you. I should have been more clear as to who my question was addressed to. Sorry.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

But this won't help since in most jazz piece the harmony is moving around a lot even if the melody stays in one key.

The concept I explained earlier about the tetrachord is the strongest, efficient and simpler way of explaining the OP's question.

I admit your approach is indeed very simple and effective. I'll keep it in mind.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Chris K

I admit your approach is indeed very simple and effective. I'll keep it in mind.

;-)

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

But that is beauty of the tetrachords. What if the Amin7 goes to D7 and to Gmin7 forming an hybrid ii-v-i? Thinking in term of tetrachord to go to the next chord is the best way to implies the harmony that is coming up.

Same if Amin7 goes to Eb7 for an example: If you play your usual dorian on Amin7 it won't bring the color of the Eb7 and the F# will clash in the whole phrase but if you use the tertrachord of Eb on Amin7 like this A-G-F-E to Eb (E is the passing tone for a smooth transition on beat 4) it will sound much better.

I wouldn't play a dorian, because I'm not thinking about a mode or even hearing one. I am hearing various way to get to Eb7. I might play A C F E or A C C# D or A A' G E and endless other variations...don't limit yourself to the tetra chord concept, just play stuff that sounds good.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

I wouldn't play a dorian, because I'm not thinking about a mode or even hearing one. I am hearing various way to get to Eb7. I might play A C F E or A C C# D or A A' G E and endless other variations...don't limit yourself to the tetra chord concept, just play stuff that sounds good.

I'm not restricting myself to this but it is a very powerful tool to outline the harmony ahead. I used that specific example to show that most people even advanced players would tend to play dorian on this which would not be as smooth as my way.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Same if Amin7 goes to Eb7 for an example: If you play your usual dorian on Amin7 it won't bring the color of the Eb7 and the F# will clash in the whole phrase but if you use the tertrachord of Eb on Amin7 like this A-G-F-E to Eb (E is the passing tone for a smooth transition on beat 4) it will sound much better.

Is there any particular reason in this example that you omit the Ab of the Eb tetrachord? Or would playing A-Ab-G-F be another option under this approach?

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Febs

Is there any particular reason in this example that you omit the Ab of the Eb tetrachord? Or would playing A-Ab-G-F be another option under this approach?

Yes!
It would be a correct line as well but based on passing tone instead of the scalar construction of the tetrachord.

Just to re-enforce the harmony the Eb7 would probably go to some sort of D chord making the Eb7 a lydian dominant with an "A" as an extended #11. This the reason I pick the tetrachord which would be almost the same as Eb with a lydian (#4 A) in it ! The note E is the stranger but is the fifth of Amin7 and E would be a passing tone between Eb and F in the scale of Eb7. So basically the line A-G-F-E to Eb would work both ways if the chord was going back to Amin7 for example. Your example would work too.

[Chris K]

The OP wanted some general pointer to play tetrachords. Two of the pointers given will work:
1. to take notice of the next chord and use the notes of that chord passing through the tetrachord (like Slybass wrote, a very versatile approach)
2. to use the notes of the key scale of the piece (like I wrote, a functional harmony/diatonic approach).

Yet it all comes down to taste. The tetrachord needs two whole tones and one semitone to take three steps, so the real question is if the semitone comes first, in the middle, or last.

For example, if Am7 is ii in G (Phil's example; however, vi in C is also possible), the bass needing to descend to D7, Slybass will play A - G - F# - E since F# is 3rd of the D7 chord. I will figure to play the same, since A - G - F# - E follows the G major scale.

However, to attain a real downgoing tension, A - G - F - Eb is stronger. So a third pointer might be: for more tension, the semitone comes last. If this tension is desired in a certain case depends on taste. this correlates with Slybass' example.

Now that we're at it, we could also discuss how to go up a fourth in four steps. F.e. going from D to G in G major, we shall need to put in a chromatic note. Would you play D - E - F - F# or D -D# -E -F#? And why?