Major Scales and Minor Scales

[bassist4ever]

i have the gig bag book of bass scales and i was wondering which ones are minor and what is major (aside form the ones which state it.)
Lets see we have the:
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Locrian
Lydian flat-seven
whole tone
diminished
and the blues scale (w maj3rd and flat5)

can anyone help me place these into categories?

(sorry if this has been repeated in some other post somewhere but i didnt have time to search [parents and their frikin college reports])

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by bassist4ever
i have the gig bag book of bass scales and i was wondering which ones are minor and what is major (aside form the ones which state it.)
Lets see we have the:
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Locrian
Lydian flat-seven
whole tone
diminished
and the blues scale (w maj3rd and flat5)

can anyone help me place these into categories?

(sorry if this has been repeated in some other post somewhere but i didnt have time to search [parents and their frikin college reports])

Well, one might say, none. Major and minor scales, in so far as we generally talk about them, are scales that follow a certain pattern of intervals, as opposed to a definition of a further sub group of scales.

Let's take Major. It's made of the intervals, (where "w" equals a whole step or tone, and "h" equals a half step or semitone):

Major: W - W - H - W - W - W - H

That's a major scale.

Then there's minor. It has a couple names, pure minor, natural minor, or aeolian.

Minor: W - H - W - W - H - W - W

The scales you list also have specific intervals that make them up. You first list Dorian. This is the second mode of the major scale. (Aeolian is the 6th mode).

Dorian: W - H - W - W - W - H - W
Phrygian: H - W- W - W - H - W - W
Lydian: W - W - W - H - W - W - H
Mixolydian: W - H - W - W - H - W - W

Blah blah blah.

So these scales are what they are, they are neither major nor minor. However, you can play certain scales over a major or minor chord. Dorian is used quite often over minor chords. But avoid the trap of just thinking that you can play dorian over any minor chord. You have to look at the chord's function. If you see Amin7, you could play that as Dorian, you could play it as Phrygian, you could play it as Aeolian. You could play it as many many different scales. It depends upon several factors, including the overall tonality, or key, of the song. It also depends upon what everyone else is doing, and what you're hearing.

[cassanova]

Originally posted by jazzbo
If you see Amin7, you could play that as Dorian, you could play it as Phrygian, you could play it as Aeolian. You could play it as many many different scales. It depends upon several factors, including the overall tonality, or key, of the song. It also depends upon what everyone else is doing, and what you're hearing.

Hey Spaz Toe? This reminds me of a conversation we had just last night. (about the modes)

When I see a Amin7 or any minor for that matter, I just automaticly think ok its got a b3, b7, and b6 sometimes (aeolian i think has b6 too). Am I at least somewhere in the ball park in my logic for this. (at least untill i can remember all the modes)

[ldiezman]

Originally posted by cassanova


Hey Spaz Toe? This reminds me of a conversation we had just last night. (about the modes)

When I see a Amin7 or any minor for that matter, I just automaticly think ok its got a b3, b7, and b6 sometimes (aeolian i think has b6 too). Am I at least somewhere in the ball park in my logic for this. (at least untill i can remember all the modes)

Cassanova, yeah you're close

Aeolian is actually the name for Natural minor. Ionian is the name for major

In response to the first question. Jazzbo explains it pretty good. lemme see if i can add to it..

They way I learned scales and modes was in reference to Major and Minor scales.
for example

Mixolydian is a major scale with a lowered seventh scale degree

Lydian is major with a raised fouth scale degree

Dorian is Natural minor with a raised 6th degree

Phrygian is natural minor with a lowered 2

locrian is the lest common of all these. its natural minor with a lowered 2 and lowered 5.

if you have access to a piano, try this. think in the key of C. no sharps or flats. only white keys. Play a C scale. That is major. then move up to D play it using only white keys, that is a dorian scale. E white only, Phrygian. F white keys only, lydian. G white keys only, Mixolydian. A white keys only, aolian (minor). B white keys only, locrian.

I hope that helped.. if it doesn't. Pm me. I can go into greater detail then if you need me too

Jim

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by ldiezman
if you have access to a piano, try this. think in the key of C. no sharps or flats. only white keys. Play a C scale. That is major. then move up to D play it using only white keys, that is a dorian scale. E white only, Phrygian. F white keys only, lydian. G white keys only, Mixolydian. A white keys only, aolian (minor). B white keys only, locrian.

This is very true, however, the one thing I don't like about this is that it doesn't teach you the relationship of the notes. What I mean is, for the longest time, if someone said to me D# Phrygian, then I would think, "okay, phrygian is the 3rd mode of the major scale, and D# is the 3rd note of B major scale. So, therefore I'll play a B major scale starting on the D#." What's bad about that is I wasn't understanding what intervals make up the phyrgian scale, I was only understanding the intervals of the major scale. When you start thinking, Phrygian is "H-W-W-W-H-W-W" then you begin to understand how you can use the phyrgian mode. This is like when Jim was saying that a Phrygian is a natural minor with a lowered 2. This is a great way to think of it, because it's much easier then to think of how you might be able to use this scale.

CHEVY NOVA,

Yes, you're in the ballpark, but let me ask you a question. Let's say you're playing a jazz tune and you see the chord Amin7, how would you know whether to play aeolian, dorian, or phrygian?

[ldiezman]

Jazzbo i see exactly what you are saying about not learning the relationships between the intervals. You're exactly right too . I was just using the piano as the easiest way to begin to hear and understand the difference between the different scales and modes. Using that along with actually knowing the note values and what not will IMO help tremendously.

Jim

[cassanova]

Originally posted by jazzbo

CHEVY NOVA,

Yes, you're in the ballpark, but let me ask you a question. Let's say you're playing a jazz tune and you see the chord Amin7, how would you know whether to play aeolian, dorian, or phrygian?

I can answer that one!

I wouldnt know

All Id know Is that by seeing an Amin7 cord It has a b3 and b7. , I know aeolian is b3, b6, b7, but over all as far as modes go I wouldnt have a clue

[Lipis Roman]

Hey Jazzbo, I wanna play too.

I'm pretty sure the answer has something to do with how the minor chord is functioning. I suppose the overall tonality of the song, along with whatever chord progression the minor chord is a part of would help to determine which scales you might choose to utilize.

As far as making those sort of decisions, aside from just playing whatever you're hearing, I'm not sure how to go about it. My knowledge of harmony is pretty damn poor at the moment.

I wouldn't mind hearing some examples/scenarios about how to go about it, if it's not too much trouble?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Lipis Roman
Hey Jazzbo, I wanna play too.

I'm pretty sure the answer has something to do with how the minor chord is functioning. I suppose the overall tonality of the song, along with whatever chord progression the minor chord is a part of would help to determine which scales you might choose to utilize.

As far as making those sort of decisions, aside from just playing whatever you're hearing, I'm not sure how to go about it. My knowledge of harmony is pretty damn poor at the moment.

I wouldn't mind hearing some examples/scenarios about how to go about it, if it's not too much trouble?

LIPSTICK ROLLER,

You're mostly right about the first part - the part about "the overall tonality of the song"...but to be more specific, it's often useful to look instead at the "Overall key of the moment" instead (and if that happens to also be the overall key of the song, so much the better; but if it doesn't, you could still be in business). For example, if you run into an Ami chord within the overall tonality of "C Major", you're looking at a vi chord, which would suggest natural minor. The same chord in the key of "G major", however, would be a ii chord, in which case the most logical choice would be Dorian. Then again, that same Ami chord in an F Major tonality would function as iii of the key, in which case Phrygian would be the most logical choice.

For example, if you look at the first few bars of "All the Things You Are", the changes look like this:

Fmi...Bbmi...Eb7...AbMa....Dbma....


If you don't understand harmonic context, you might play a Dorian for each of the minor chords, and Ionian for each of the Major chords. But when you take the overall tonality into account, it becomes clear that the whole progression above is all a part of Ab Major, which means that the following chord scales are implied because of the overall harmonic context:

Fmi: Aeolian

Bbmi: Dorian

Eb7: Mixolydian

AbMa: Ionian

DbMa: Lydian


Does that make sense?

[Lipis Roman]

That makes sense Chris. The concept is pretty foreign to me at this point but I think I understand what you've explained so far. Just to be certain, here's a couple examples with my take on it.

Gmi...Cmi...F7...Bbma...Ebma...

That would be the same type of progression (vi-ii-V7-I-IV) you just used only in the key of Bb, implying the same scale types as in the example of "All the Things You Are". Right?

Now say that Gmi chord appeared again in the same song like this: Gmi...C7...Fma... (ii-V7-I)

I don't know how likely that is to happen but if it did that would likely imply Dorian to be played over that same Gmi chord instead of aeolian, in which case the "overall key of the moment" would be would be F.

Correct assumptions?

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by Lipis Roman
Now say that Gmi chord appeared again in the same song like this: Gmi...C7...Fma... (ii-V7-I)

I don't know how likely that is to happen but if it did that would likely imply Dorian to be played over that same Gmi chord instead of aeolian, in which case the "overall key of the moment" would be would be F.

Correct assumptions?

Yes. Correct assumption. What you describe is very likely to happen, a ii-V7-I turnaround.

Gmi: Dorian
C7: Mixolydian
Fma: Ionian (Major)

[Lipis Roman]

Why, exactly, would you want to play something that you are not hearing? Isn't that the classic mistake we see time and time again in the After School specials? If you and I are involved in a conversation, I want to talk to you, I want to understand what you are thinking/feeling about whatever our topic of conversation is. Not hear you use a lot of words you looked up in the dictionary last night. sure, you want to try to deepen your understanding:you read books with different ideas in them and think about the ideas in those books. That way, when you come to the conversation, you are telling me the things that you understand and asking about things that you don't understand in your own voice, with your own vocabulary (which is increasing because of how you are working on it).

Man, I've made about 10 edits to this post trying to respond but they all ammounted to a bunch of babble.

In short, I understand what you're saying Ed. Makes sense to me.

[edit#2] Sorry about that, bad timing. You addressed a couple things that I edited out of my previous post. Thank you for the input Ed and for that link, Joe Sounds like an amazing guy.

[cassanova]

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
[b] - aside from just playing whatever you're hearing -

Why, exactly, would you want to play something that you are not hearing? Isn't that the classic mistake we see time and time again in the After School specials? If you and I are involved in a conversation, I want to talk to you, I want to understand what you are thinking/feeling about whatever our topic of conversation is. Not hear you use a lot of words you looked up in the dictionary last night. sure, you want to try to deepen your understanding:you read books with different ideas in them and think about the ideas in those books. That way, when you come to the conversation, you are telling me the things that you understand and asking about things that you don't understand in your own voice, with your own vocabulary (which is increasing because of how you are working on it).

I understand you have to play what you hear in your head. Thats why Im trying to broaden my vocabulary a bit, so I know why what Im playing works, and in some cases what Im actually playing, (if that last part makes sense to you I dont know)


But again to quote Bob Brookmeyer "You use a chord scale approach you got 6 to 8 notes to choose from, you use a chromatic approach you got 12..." seeing a G minor chord and strictly thinking Dorian (in the example set) presupposes that it's the absolute only chord that's ever gonna get played in that part of the tune, and you and me both know that that just isn't the way it unfolds on the stand...

If I see a G ninor chord, I wouldnt strictly think Dorian, for one, Im still kinda clueless why Id have to think that. But like I said earlier, I'd just think ok, I have to use b3, b6, and b7.

This hasnt let me down yet, but now Im getting the feeling that it just might someday.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua

DURRL - I know everybody's gotta start somewhere, but this is exactly the kind of thing that I had always worked on and exactly the kind of thing that led me to a dead end about 6 years ago. Hence my vilification....


FUQHORN,

No sweat, I hear you. I talk about this stuff because it's baby steps, and everybody's gotta take them before they can walk, much less run. And these descriptions I use are just one way to describe what I hear in general in a very basic sense in situations like this. I figure that if folks like CRASHMYNOVA and LIBIDINOUS ROMULAN are asking questions about which minor scale to play, this stuff will help get them closer to being in the ballpark of a given tonality, which is one step closer to being able to hear large-scale stuff. I would never say that this **** is RULES... remarks like these are rather intended to be taken only as helpful suggestions.

But again to quote Bob Brookmeyer "You use a chord scale approach you got 6 to 8 notes to choose from, you use a chromatic approach you got 12..." seeing a G minor chord and strictly thinking Dorian (in the example set) presupposes that it's the absolute only chord that's ever gonna get played in that part of the tune, and you and me both know that that just isn't the way it unfolds on the stand...

I agree. But again, I think it helps to hear the more "inside" stuff first before trying to figure out how to resolve the more "outside" stuff back "inside". Or did I get that inside-out?

[Lipis Roman]

I just want to say that I understand where both of you (Chris and Ed) are comming from and I appreciate both points of view, it'a all giving me alot to think about.

I spend a decent ammount of time singing melodies that I have in my head, whether I'm practing or away from the bass. I also find myself harmonizing over songs on the radio or any albums I may be listening to. I hear stuff, I just don't always understand the inner workings of what I'm hearing in terms of theory, infact it's rare that I do. That's one of my problems that I'm now determined to put an end to, I welcome the challenge, it's exciting stuff.

Being presented with the basics that Chris and Jazzbo have mentioned seem to help quite a bit, it's information I can sink my teeth into and I'm not getting overwhelmed by it. I know none of this is be all end all type of stuff, strict rules and what not. It's just something to work with and mold into whatever is desired.

That approach coupled with a wide eye view of the big picture and/or goals to shoot for that Ed is talking about makes for a great combo in my opinion. Informative and inspiring.

Just wanted to drop my 2 cents in, now I'm broke again, thanks again guys.

[jazzbo]

Ed,

The question I have then, would be how to you learn to fly if you can't "walk" yet? Once you learn the rules, then you can break them, but you can't break rules that you just don't know about.

Let's take the ii-V7-I example, and stay in Cmajor for simplicity.

Our chords are Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7

If we write out scales, to signify possible note selections, (a la Aebersold), then we have:

D E F G A B C || G A B C D E F || C D E F G A B ||

Now, if we just abitrarily choose Aeolian and Ionian to play, our note selection becomes:

D E F G A Bb C || G A B C D E F# || C D E F G A B ||

Now we've got a Bb and F# in there that may or may not work. I kind of like the Bb on occassion and I certainly like the tritone, when used in the right place. So, yeah, it's not going to be a total bummer, but following some sort of guideline as a beginner is helpful to some. Now, maybe it's better just to start more openly, but unless you have the right situation, (good teacher, jazzbos to play with, etc.), it's hard to discern what or why you're doing when you play just chromatically.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Lipis Roman
I just want to say that I understand where both of you (Chris and Ed) are comming from and I appreciate both points of view, it'a all giving me alot to think about.


Being presented with the basics that Chris and Jazzbo have mentioned seem to help quite a bit, it's information I can sink my teeth into and I'm not getting overwhelmed by it. I know none of this is be all end all type of stuff, strict rules and what not. It's just something to work with and mold into whatever is desired.

That approach coupled with a wide eye view of the big picture and/or goals to shoot for that Ed is talking about makes for a great combo in my opinion. Informative and inspiring.

Just wanted to drop my 2 cents in, now I'm broke again, thanks again guys.

Cool. That's what this site is all about.

[cassanova]

[quote]Originally posted by jazzbo
[b]Ed,

Let's take the ii-V7-I example, and stay in Cmajor for simplicity.

Our chords are Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7


i know the lower case numerals indicates minor...here you have ii-V7-I lemme see if i have this right then if I may.

key of C

ii=Dmin 2nd tone in scale (not quite sure where the min7 came from on it though.)

V7=??? im not sure what that means actually. But you say its a G7, so im thinking its the fifth with a F# or 7 added, still not really sure.

I=Cmaj7

so this progression would actually start minor but end major??


My 2nd question, is did i come up with our chords the right way??

[PanteraFan]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald

For example, if you look at the first few bars of "All the Things You Are", the changes look like this:

Fmi...Bbmi...Eb7...AbMa....Dbma....

If you don't understand harmonic context, you might play a Dorian for each of the minor chords, and Ionian for each of the Major chords. But when you take the overall tonality into account, it becomes clear that the whole progression above is all a part of Ab Major, which means that the following chord scales are implied because of the overall harmonic context:

And this is the only problem I really have with theory right now - how the hell do I figure out the key? I can work it out from the root note, but if I'm given a bunch of chords how the hell do I figure out the overal tonality?!?!? This is really bugging me, as I can't get a straight answer anywhere. It didn't help when I was reading a guitar magazine article on the situation, and it said that when working out keys, look at the notes in the scale. I knew this much. Then, it started randomly saying how certain chords corresponding to notes in a scale were major/minor -




Excuse my ignorance, but how the hell can you look at C Major: C D E F G A B, and know which notes correspond to minor chords? I'm guessing that you look at the modes of that scale and use the notes of that mode to construct chords:

C: Ionian, no sharps or flats

D: Dorian, b3 and b7

E: Phyrgian, b2, b3 and b7

F: Lydian, #4(b5)

G: Mixolydian, b7(dominant 7?)

A: Aeolian, b3, b6 and b7

B: Locrian, b2, b3, b5, b6 and b7

Usually, Minor chords have a flat 3rd right? So, in the key of C Major, D, E, A and B all construct chords that are minor, right?

If I'm wrong, please correct me. This is probably the only thing stopping me from understanding theory a hell of a lot more.

P.S. When writing stuff, Aeolian, Phyrgian and Locrian are my favourite modes for riffs. It's just a shame I can't tell my guitarist what chords would sound best over the riffs I write .

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by PANFRIED_TERRAPIN


And this is the only problem I really have with theory right now - how the hell do I figure out the key? I can work it out from the root note, but if I'm given a bunch of chords how the hell do I figure out the overal tonality?!?!? This is really bugging me, as I can't get a straight answer anywhere. It didn't help when I was reading a guitar magazine article on the situation, and it said that when working out keys, look at the notes in the scale. I knew this much. Then, it started randomly saying how certain chords corresponding to notes in a scale were major/minor -

I bet the mag you read was on the right track, but didn't quite put it clearly enough. What you do is...

Write out any major scale, then assign numbers to each degree of the scale, like so:

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

(the alignment sucks, but you know what I mean)

read on below...


Excuse my ignorance, but how the hell can you look at C Major: C D E F G A B, and know which notes correspond to minor chords? I'm guessing that you look at the modes of that scale and use the notes of that mode to construct chords:

You are entirely correct. In most legit theory books, you'll find chords referred to in Roman Numerals (Also known as LIPIS NUMERALS). The Roman numerals include two pieces of information:

1) The scale degree the chord is built upon, and

2) The "quality" of the chord (Ma, mi, dim, etc.)

This pattern of major and minor chord qualities remains consistent through all the keys. If I modify your mode analysis below to inclue the Roman numerals, it will look like:


I C: Ionian, no sharps or flats

ii D: Dorian, b3 and b7

iii E: Phyrgian, b2, b3 and b7

IV F: Lydian, #4(b5)

VG: Mixolydian, b7(dominant 7?)

vi A: Aeolian, b3, b6 and b7

vii B: Locrian, b2, b3, b5, b6 and b7

Does that make sense? What it comes down to is that if the chords in question are really drawn from a single major key, the chord built on the first degree of the scale will be Major, the chord built on the second degree will be minor, iii=mi, IV=Ma, etc...

Usually, Minor chords have a flat 3rd right? So, in the key of C Major, D, E, A and B all construct chords that are minor, right?

Right. Although technically, the one built on B is called a diminished chord because the fifth is also flatted.

If I'm wrong, please correct me. This is probably the only thing stopping me from understanding theory a hell of a lot more.

P.S. When writing stuff, Aeolian, Phyrgian and Locrian are my favourite modes for riffs. It's just a shame I can't tell my guitarist what chords would sound best over the riffs I write .

Keep this up, and before long you'll be able to do just that. Good luck.