Major Scales and Minor Scales

[PanteraFan]

Ah! Now I'm starting to understand. Just to clarify, let's take a three chord progression:

Gmin7, Emaj, Fmin

I write out my modes:

I: Ionian, no sharps or flats

ii: Dorian, b3 and b7

iii: Phyrgian, b2, b3 and b7

IV: Lydian, #4(b5)

V: Mixolydian, b7(This is the same as dominant 7, right?)

vi: Aeolian, b3, b6 and b7

vii: Locrian, b2, b3, b5, b6 and b7

And I match those chords to the corresponding mode?

Could you please run me through an example if this is correct, just so I know?

Thanks in advance.

PF

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by PanteraFan
Ah! Now I'm starting to understand. Just to clarify, let's take a three chord progression:

Gmin7, Emaj, Fmin

I write out my modes:

I: Ionian, no sharps or flats

ii: Dorian, b3 and b7

iii: Phyrgian, b2, b3 and b7

IV: Lydian, #4(b5)

V: Mixolydian, b7(This is the same as dominant 7, right?)

vi: Aeolian, b3, b6 and b7

vii: Locrian, b2, b3, b5, b6 and b7

And I match those chords to the corresponding mode?

Could you please run me through an example if this is correct, just so I know?

Thanks in advance.

PF

PONTOONFLOAT,

You're on the right path, but if you follow the path, you'll discover that the three chords you mentioned cannot all be from the same key. The first thing you'd have to do to figure this out would be to figure out which scales could have an EMa chord in them. Remember that since Major chords function in only three ways (as I, IV, or V chords) in a major tonality, there will be only three major scales that any given Major chord could be an ORGANIC part of.

For instance, an EMa chord could function as:

I in the key of E Major
IV in the key if B Major
V In the key of A Major

Since all of these key signatures contain both F#'s and G#'s, you can tell right away that the EMa chord could not come from the same key as the Fmi and Gmi chords.

However, if the other chords in the progression were F#mi and G#mi instead, then you could say that all three chords could belong to the key of E Major, and function as follows:

I - E Ma
ii - F#mi
iii - G#mi
IV - A Ma etc...

So all that is needed to determine whether chords fit together under the same tonality (In the most basic sense, anyway...) is a knowledge of how to spell scales combined with the knowledge of what type of chord (Ma, mi, etc...) would be built on each scale degree to produce a chord from inside the same tonality. With me?

And remember, there's no law that says that songs need to use only related chords....it's just that related chords sound very "inside" in relation to each other.

P.S. - before I get corrected or flamed for the above, please note that I'm talking about Major key harmony ONLY here....Minor key harmony is a slightly different animal. Either way, the three chords you mentioned cannot all be from the same key.

[PanteraFan]

Got ya, they aren't in the same key. However, it might not mean they sound bad together, right?

I'd bet that careers have been spent trying to figure out what to play over chords that aren't in the same tonality - like the ones I mentioned.

Either way, this helps a lot. If my guitarist gives me 4 chords, and only 3 fit together, I could always play something in the same key that had similar notes to the 'odd' chord. I could just work around it by not playing any of the identifying notes of that scale (i.e. b2 in Phyrgian) that would make it too obvious. Or perhaps, maybe that'd sound good. Whatever.

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by cassanova
[b]
Our chords are Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7


i know the lower case numerals indicates minor...here you have ii-V7-I lemme see if i have this right then if I may.

key of C

ii=Dmin 2nd tone in scale (not quite sure where the min7 came from on it though.)

D F A C = Dmin7 or ii-7

It comes from starting on the second note of the major scale and building a chord with notes that are a third apart that are a part of the scale.

m3 M3 m3

V7=??? im not sure what that means actually. But you say its a G7, so im thinking its the fifth with a F# or 7 added, still not really sure.

V7, dominant 7th chord built on the fifth of the scale, in this case a G7, start on the fifth note of the scale and build a chord with notes that are a third apart.

G B D F (M3 m3 m3)

The sound of this chord has a lot of tension because of the tritone between B and F and wants to resolve i.e. to something with less tension.

[cassanova]

Originally posted by Phil Smith


D F A C = Dmin7 or ii-7

It comes from starting on the second note of the major scale and building a chord with notes that are a third apart that are a part of the scale.

m3 M3 m3



V7, dominant 7th chord built on the fifth of the scale, in this case a G7, start on the fifth note of the scale and build a chord with notes that are a third apart.

G B D F (M3 m3 m3)

The sound of this chord has a lot of tension because of the tritone between B and F and wants to resolve i.e. to something with less tension.

gotcha (i think)

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
JAZZBEAUX - how to you learn to fly if you can't "walk" - hmmmm. On one hand, I may be looking at this a certain way because Joe knows that I have a handle on some other stuff, but I'm pretty sure not. Because there are other students of his that are working on versions of what I'm working on and they run the gamut from beginners to other working cats (including one guy who used to play with the GE Smith band on SNL). So I would say instead of dealing with each individual scale
D E F G A B C D/G A B C D E F G/C D E F G A B C (right? Dorian Mixolydian Ionian?), look at the harmony D F A C / G B D F / C E G B and (because you've been working real hard at arpeggios in all inversions and can really hear your way through these, right?). You can link phrases chromatically, play notes outside of the scales by using sequenced phrases, use notes that you will later define as being from borrowed scales, upper tensions, substitutions whatever because they belong to a line that your ear and intent define. And yes, the more you work on hearing the harmony and work on improvising over harmony, the deeper and richer your ideas get. But, just like you don't have to memorise a dictionary to go have a conversation with someone, neither do you have to plum the depths of polychordality to play some real and true ****. But you are not ever going to play some real and true **** if all you are doing is looking for notes to plug in. OK, Rant off.

While all this makes perfect sense, and I do agree with you, I think a working knowledge of chord tonality and function is crucial to the beginning steps of defining your sound. I just think that if you are just starting, trying to establish something under your fingers for how to walk over a tune, that having some foundation (or basic concepts) to fall back on will help expand the number of ideas that you weren't yet having in your head. I think the most important thing you said there was "you've been working real hard at arpeggios in all inversions and can really hear your way through these, right?" The other very important part was about not just plugging in notes. I do think these two ideas we're exploring can be quite symbiotic though.

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by jazzbo
While all this makes perfect sense, and I do agree with you, I think a working knowledge of chord tonality and function is crucial to the beginning steps of defining your sound. I just think that if you are just starting, trying to establish something under your fingers for how to walk over a tune, that having some foundation (or basic concepts) to fall back on will help expand the number of ideas that you weren't yet having in your head. I think the most important thing you said there was "you've been working real hard at arpeggios in all inversions and can really hear your way through these, right?" The other very important part was about not just plugging in notes. I do think these two ideas we're exploring can be quite symbiotic though.

I think the foundation is working on the arpeggios in all inversions to the point that it becomes familiar i.e. in your ear and also in your conscious mind, so you can readily spell out the chord as you see it, if it's a chart, or in your memory because you know the song i.e. progression and melody. If you know the inversions of the next 3 chords coming up in addition to the one you're currently playing, you have a heck of a lot of ideas, the only thing left then is to play them. There's an amazing amount of stuff that you can create that will sound good just using the chord tones and their inversions, in conjunction with rhythm.