Major vs. Minor Progression confusion

[nick9871]

I am hoping that I simply have greatly confused myself with this issue and a simple answer is in order.

I was attempting to learn "Save Tonight" by eagle eye cherry on the guitar and bass.

I found out the chords, or at least I am pretty sure..., are Am F C G

So I assume the song is in the key of Am (since it starts with Am...) and in doing so I come up with the progression of 1-6-3-7 .

So here is what confuses me. When I was searching for the song I came across this site:

Six Four One Five:The Sensitive Female Chord Progression: Eagle Eye Cherry, "Save Tonight"

interesting site but what interests me most is that they say the song is a 6-4-1-5 progression which is not what I came up with. So I worked backwards and if I use the chords I came up with I get a key of C.

So I know Am is the relative minor of C. But why then does this song get depicted as a 6-4-1-5 major progression instead of a 1-6-3-7 minor progression? If I wanted to transpose the song to another minor key I would have to use the progression that I came up with originally right?

Guess its just the song writers choice? Or have I fallen off the boat here?

[longfinger]

In traditional tonal harmony, to make a cadence in Am and confirm it as the tonal center, you need to have a G# leading tone. If no accidental is placed, then the tonal center eventually drifts back to C, regardless of which chord was first.

[vin*tone]

I've always just assumed it was easier to refer to chord numbers relative to their Major. eg: when you refer to a II, V, I progression, other musicians will know what that is without needing to be told that it refers to a Major key.

Interesting question tho.

[mambo4]

I agree, vi-IV-I-V in C is a little clearer than i-VI-III-VII in A minor.

because when you harmonize a minor scale, you imply that you harmonize the Harmonic Minor (as Long finger points to.) Which would make Am F C G into Am F C+ G#dim.
Add to that the fact that in i-VI-III-VII, 3 of the chords are "flat" root notes (b3 , b6, b7) which may also be confusing.

And finally, of course, Just because it starts on Am doesn't make it the key of Am automatically. The fact (again as Longfinger indicates) that there is V-I cadence to C major but not a V-I cadence to A minor is a stronger indicator of the key center.

[Russell L]

All above have stated it right. Technically, there is no minor "key" since minor is relative to major, but when someone calls across the band stand, "What key?" I'm sure we've all hollered back, "So-and-so minor," just for simplicity when a minor chord takes the center of a progression's harmony (House of the Rising Sun, Ghost Riders In the Sky, etc.).

[MalcolmAmos]

Good question. The C major scale and the Am scale have the same notes, and the same chords. You can only tell if it going to be a C major song or an Am song by looking at the chords used.

If the song revolves around the major chords you are in C major. If the song revolves around the minor chords you are in Am.

Am F C G

You have three major chords and one minor chord. I'd bet the farm on C major. Why? Well C F G are the I IV V chords in the key of C. I IV V has been used in a gizillion songs. And the Am 6th chord is used with the I IV V all the time.

I, vi, IV, V I is the ole ice cream progression used in early rock songs played in the malt shops.

So everything points to this being C major.

Once again that old wives tail of looking at the starting chord as an indicator of the tonic chord has proven to be a bad bet. I know it's confusing. If it was easy everybody would be doing it.

[nick9871]

Ah ok I am getting it now. Thanks everyone, that helped out a bunch! back to practicing!

[kr0n]

I've heard a tip that it's better to look at the last chord than the first for key. Songs tend to end in resolution of tension. Not sure if it's applicable in this song to be honest.

[basstoven]

My teacher says its all about the key of the melody. If the melody is in Am then its i-bVII-bIII-bVI. If its in C then the progression is vi-IV-I-V. Im guessing this song is in the Key of C. I wouldnt know any different just going by what the man said (he is Berklee educated.) He also said it is easier to write in C because you dont need accidentals (sharps or flats)

[Febs]

Originally Posted by basstoven

He also said it is easier to write in C because you dont need accidentals (sharps or flats)

I'm not following this. There is no difference in terms of accidentals between writing in C and writing in Am.

[JTE]

Without a melody we're left with looking at only the harmony defined by the chords. Since none are noted as anything beyond the triad it a little vague. But you have the main chords of a progression that wants to resolve to C, especially with the G there. And there's nothing pulling your ear to the Amin.

Minor keys are more complicated than straight major keys. If you harmonize A Natural Minor you get the same chords as C Major. That includes the G7 which pulls you inexorably to C. If you raise the 7th tone of A Natural Minor though, it destroys the G7 (and its pull to C), alter the C to a less stable C aug, and create an E7 that pulls your ear to the Amin chord.

So in A minor you're likely to see a G# accidental and/or an E7 chord.

BTW, that minor scale with the raised 7 is called Harmonic Minor because the alteration was done in order to alter the harmony derived from the scale.

John

[nick9871]

JTE that makes sense but how does one easily and quickly communicate a melody to another musician without, well, playing it? I'm not trying to be facetious but I dont quite understand, yet, how changing the chords to say a Cmaj7 Gdim Am Fmaj7 makes it easier to understand the melody.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by nick9871

JTE that makes sense but how does one easily and quickly communicate a melody to another musician without, well, playing it? I'm not trying to be facetious but I dont quite understand, yet, how changing the chords to say a Cmaj7 Gdim Am Fmaj7 makes it easier to understand the melody.

It doesn't.

You communicate the melody by writing it out in standard notation. Notation indicates a SOUND, not a physical placement of the fingers/mouth/etc. to create that sound. That's how people are able to read a score without an instrument and know what it sounds like (it's also why a sax player and a violinist can read the same score and play it the same way).

Do you even know what Cmaj7 is? Those chords you listed are kind of weird together. So, let's look at them.

Cma7 C E G B, clearly in the key of C and also in the key of F, but in no other keys naturally.

Gdim G Bb Db would come from the key of Ab (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G)

Amin is A C E, could be the ii of G, the iii of F, the vi of C.

Fmaj7 is F A C E, which means it can only come naturally from either the key of F (where it's the I) or the key of C (where it's the IV).

So, how do you put those chords together into one key? You can't. And that's not a problem unless you're trying to stay in one key. If the chords fit the melody then it's fine. The thing is that the chords don't tell you the melody. If you're improvising they'll tell you the harmony against which you have to build a melody. In your example, that means you have to be able to deal with the change that the b5 and the b3 of the Gdim cause coming from the the C chord and going to the Amin. The Amin and CMaj7 share a lot of common ground, and those two notes in the Gdim kind of throw those connections out. So while soloing you'll have to reconcile those differences.

The exposition about Harmonic Minor was to reinforce why the original progression of Amin G F C would be most clearly described as vi V IV I in C major than i VII VI III in A minor. The pull of the V chord to I is quite strong and there's no V chord in the A minor analysis.

"House of The Rising Sun" is in a minor key. The changes are Amin C D F Amin E7. Simple analysis of the chord (spell 'em out yourself to see this) clearly shows it has to have accidentals in it. There's no key that contains the notes of the Amin, C, and F AS WELL AS the notes of the D major nor the E7. That D to F change is kind of jarring or at least grabs your ear because of the change from an F# in the D chord to the F natural.

Anyway, the point is that you really need to know the chords (which I suspect you do actually know) AND how and why common chord progressions work. Music theory is the "why", it's not rules. It's an explanation of what's commonly done and why it works. What you do with that to create music can be to either follow the guidelines (they're not rules generally) or step around the guidelines.

John

[MalcolmAmos]

As we do not play all the chord tones all at once at the same time - like when the guitar strums a chord - some of the major or minor sound is lost on our bass. Same way with melody notes.

If you have access to a keyboard make a C major chord, sound it. Now make a Cm chord, sound it. That b3 note in the minor chord you are hearing is the minor sound.

If you use minor chords - chords with the b3 note - your tonal center is minor.
If you use major chords - chords with the natural 3 note - your tonal center is major.

Listen for it. I think you have to hear it to understand it.

[sammyp]

Originally Posted by longfinger

In traditional tonal harmony, to make a cadence in Am and confirm it as the tonal center, you need to have a G# leading tone. If no accidental is placed, then the tonal center eventually drifts back to C, regardless of which chord was first.

well stated ...i concur ...i've always felt in order to have a song in a "real" minor you need the presence of the V chord from the minor as you point out

6 4 1 5 is definately the easiest way to understand a straight up diatonic tune like save tonight .....

to the OP - the reason we don't refer to Save Tonight as being in Am is this ....a true minor song in the classical sense uses chords dervied from the Hammonic Minor scale ...so in Am you might find - Am, B1/2 dim, C, Dm, E7, F, G#dim ....

so you see there is no spot for a G chord in a true Am minor key ......we can however refer to the tune in the key of A natural minor but this is the same as C major as Am is the relative minor in C major .....if you wanna call it in Am he chord formula would be i, vi, iii, b7


6, 4, 1 , 5 is easier on the noodle ...trust me!

[BillyIVbass]

I will think of the song in C major. As a bassist I know the C major scale and all the triads off of the scale.

But I play this song as well as Mr. Jones by the Counting Crows; I'd probably tell a guitar player "it's in Am" because all they want to do is wail an Am pentatonic solo.

[James Judson]

Minor key???? How is that notated in 5 line staff. It isn't!!! No sharp or flats is the key of C. Self trained blues/rock musicians sometimes call it key of Am cuz they need to differentiate. The key of C could potentially start with a Cmajor, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim chords.

[sammyp]

there's no lead in Mr Jones is there? LOL

[sammyp]

Originally Posted by James Judson

Minor key???? How is that notated in 5 line staff. It isn't!!! No sharp or flats is the key of C. Self trained blues/rock musicians sometimes call it key of Am cuz they need to differentiate. The key of C could potentially start with a Cmajor, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim chords.

you're right ..for a true Am song you will see no sharps or flats in the key sig but a whack of G#s ...then you know!

[OOZMAN]

Man, I'm glad I listen to metal, you guys are making it out like the only scales are major and minor...

Major and minor scales are boring as heck