Making sure my bass chords are right =)

[tpmiller08]

I kept everything in Sharps (#) to keep it simple. But heres what I got. Just want to make sure that I'm on point. I never wrote them out like this. I just used to break them down as I needed them. Doing that, I think, limited my ability to play "outside" the box

Major Chord - Root + Major 3rd + minor 3rd (or Perfect 5th from the root, it seems)
Minor Chord - Root + minor 3rd + Major 3rd (Major 6th from root maybe?)
Diminished Chord - Root + minor 3rd + minor 3rd (Minor 6th from root maybes?)

Major-
C-E-G
F-A-C
G-B-D

D-F#-A
E-G#-B
A-C#-E
B-D#-F#

C#-F-G#
F#-A#-C#
G#-C-D#

D#-G-A#
E#(F)-A-C
A#-D-F
B#(C)-E-G

Minor-
D-F-A
E-G-B
A-C-E
B-D-F# (Why does B minor have an F#? Seems to be the only chord that doesn't fit into C Major, or any of the modes for C Major)

C-D#-G
F-G#-C
G-A#-D

D#-F#-A#
E#(F)-G#-C
A#-C#-F
B#(C)-D#-G

C#-E-G#
F#-A-C#
G#-B-D#

Diminished-

D-F-G#
E-G-A#
F-G#-B
G-A#-C#
A-C-D#
B-D-F (This fits into the C Major scale and its modes though. Is this just the way things are? Is the B scale just naturally a Diminished chord? I'm unsure because B is the 7th tone of C Major right? And I'm almost positive B is vii making it minor no?)
C-D#-F#


D#-F#-A
E#(F)-G#-B
F#-A-C
G#-B-D
A#-C#-E
B#(C)-D#-F#
C#-E-G


So thats what I got for Bass chords (as triads) using all twelve keys for Major, Minor, and Diminished. I would appreciate if anyone told me if I was WAY off, on the right path, dead on, any kind of feedback


Thanks all!


-Troy

[Blake Bass]

By keeping everthing in sharps you have some enharmonic mistakes. For example a C# major triad does not have the note F in it. It should look like this C#-E#-G#...compare it to a regular C triad C-E-G ..Technically E# and F are the same note but F is not in the key signature of C#. E# is in the key. I hope this makes sense and helps.

[orbit2021]

Well I would like To start by saying "bass chords" is a misnomer. Chords are chords an thier structure doesn't change whether you play them on a bass or a piano.

Secondly, the manner in which you describe the intervals is (at least to me), slightly bizarre. A major chord is root, maj 3rd, perfect fifth. That is the triad (C E G), and yes yours was correct but I don't know how many people would describe it as you have. The difference between the major and minor triads, is the quality of the 3rd. So a minor triad is root min 3rd (A C E) perfect 5th. The minor 3rd is a half step lower than the major and the fifth is always perfect. Yes this does mean there is now more space between the 3rd and 5th but you have augmented the fifth in your example. You describe it as a minor 6th, so your minor chord technically doesn't have a 5th, or you could simply describe it as a minor augmented chord. I would say your minor chord is a minor 6th chord which omits the 5th.

Diminished and augmented refers to the quality of the 5th. Dim is a perfect 5th lowered by a half step and augmented is a perfect 5th raised by a half step.

So you can have these 2 qualities (maj/min and dim/aug) independant of each other.

I think typically a dim chord goes naturally minor so A C Eb (this is referred to as a tri-tone because the intervals are root + min 3rd + min 3rd), and augmented is typically major so C E G#

Min aug A C E# , maj dim C E Gb

EDIT: personally i have never really put much into figuring these out in 12 keys because unless you are simply talking note names there is no difference in the intervals no matter what key, but what the poster above me pointed out, is pertinent to describing the chords in all 12 keys. the physical pattern you will play on the bass, no matter what the root is, is always the same. so if you can play a major triad in one key you can play it in any key you just move the pattern to a different root.

also added the tri tone bit on this edit

[tpmiller08]

Originally Posted by Blake Bass

By keeping everthing in sharps you have some enharmonic mistakes. For example a C# major triad does not have the note F in it. It should look like this C#-E#-G#...compare it to a regular C triad C-E-G ..Technically E# and F are the same note but F is not in the key signature of C#. E# is in the key. I hope this makes sense and helps.

I think I got it. It would be played on F, but it's technically E#. So I should write it out that way right?
Same with G# right? It would go G#-B#-D#, and not G#-C-D#?

I would basically add a sharp to every note, would that apply to minor and diminished scales to?

Also, whats the next step to make a 4 note chord? (Don't know the name of the chord, quad something maybe? heh)



Thanks for the response!

-Troy

[tpmiller08]

Originally Posted by orbit2021

Well I would like To start by saying "bass chords" is a misnomer. Chords are chords an thier structure doesn't change whether you play them on a bass or a piano.

Secondly, the manner in which you describe the intervals is (at least to me), slightly bizarre. A major chord is root, maj 3rd, perfect fifth. That is the triad (C E G), and yes yours was correct but I don't know how many people would describe it as you have. The difference between the major and minor triads, is the quality of the 3rd. So a minor triad is root min 3rd (A C E) perfect 5th. The minor 3rd is a half step lower than the major and the fifth is always perfect. Yes this does mean there is now more space between the 3rd and 5th but you have augmented the fifth in your example. You describe it as a minor 6th, so your minor chord technically doesn't have a 5th, or you could simply describe it as a minor augmented chord. I would say your minor chord is a minor 6th chord which omits the 5th.

Diminished and augmented refers to the quality of the 5th. Dim is a perfect 5th lowered by a half step and augmented is a perfect 5th raised by a half step.

So you can have these 2 qualities (maj/min and dim/aug) independant of each other.

I think typically a dim chord goes naturally minor so A C Eb, and augmented is typically major so C E G#

Min aug A C E# , maj dim C E Gb

I actually got it from the chord construction thread from the lessons and articles section on this forum

So the chords are right by notes (Minus how I wrote out E#'s and B#'s), I just got at them a different way, and it's better explained using 5ths. So Major Chords would become Root + Major 3rd + Perfect 5th. Minor Chords would be Root + Minor 3rd + Perfect 5th. And Diminished Chords would be Root + Minor 3rd + Diminished 5th?

If I'm way off let me know. I'm trying to figure out if I reached the right end result (IE the right notes for the chords) but just reached them in the wrong way. Or if the notes are off as well.

Thanks so much!


-Troy

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

I kept everything in Sharps (#) to keep it simple. But heres what I got. Just want to make sure that I'm on point. I never wrote them out like this. I just used to break them down as I needed them. Doing that, I think, limited my ability to play "outside" the box

Major Chord - Root + Major 3rd + minor 3rd (or Perfect 5th from the root, it seems)
Minor Chord - Root + minor 3rd + Major 3rd (Major 6th from root maybe?)
Diminished Chord - Root + minor 3rd + minor 3rd (Minor 6th from root maybes?)

First thing, DON'T keep everything in sharps. That doesn't make it simple, it makes it wrong. It will hinder your understanding rather than enhance it. You'll need to learn correct intervals. For example, F to G# is not a minor 3rd, it's an augmented second. The reason is that no F-G interval, whatever the sharps or flats, can ever be any kind of 3rd interval, because from any F to any G is just a single LETTER step (there's no letter between F and G), and that by definition is always some kind of 2nd interval. F to Ab is a minor 3rd, as is E# to G#, because in both cases there is a letter between the two letters that specify the interval (F G A, E F G).

Second, under minor, the distance from the root to the third note is not a major 6th, it's still a perfect 5th. And under diminished, the distance from the root to the third note is not a minor 6th, it's a diminished 5th.

[orbit2021]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

I think I got it. It would be played on F, but it's technically E#. So I should write it out that way right?
Same with G# right? It would go G#-B#-D#, and not G#-C-D#?

I would basically add a sharp to every note, would that apply to minor and diminished scales to?

Also, whats the next step to make a 4 note chord? (Don't know the name of the chord, quad something maybe? heh)



Thanks for the response!

-Troy

after the initial qualities are described, the maj/min and whether or not the 5th is aug/dim, the rest of the chord name deal with extensions.

6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, are all extensions. this is because they are neither minor nor major by themselves. minor versions of these are lowered by a half step and major versions are already there.

the 9th refers to adding a 2nd, only an octave higher (as would be expected since there are, in a diatonic scale, 8 scale tones), 11th adding a 4th (octave higher), 13th is a 6th octave higher.

so Amin7 would be A C E G, Am6 A C E F, Amaj7 A C# E G#, Amaj6 A C# E F#

now when we add the 9th, 11th, or 13th, i am not sure whether by default you add the extensions below it. for example, if you had a 13th chord, does it contain the 11th, 9th, and 7th extensions by default? im not sure on that one.

[orbit2021]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

First thing, DON'T keep everything in sharps. That doesn't make it simple, it makes it wrong. It will hinder your understanding rather than enhance it. You'll need to learn correct intervals. For example, F to G# is not a minor 3rd, it's an augmented second. The reason is that no F-G interval, whatever the sharps or flats, can ever be any kind of 3rd interval, because from any F to any G is just a single LETTER step (there's no letter between F and G), and that by definition is always some kind of 2nd interval. F to Ab is a minor 3rd, as is E# to G#, because in both cases there is a letter between the two letters that specify the interval (F G A, E F G).

Second, under minor, the distance from the root to the third note is not a major 6th, it's still a perfect 5th. And under diminished, the distance from the root to the third note is not a minor 6th, it's a diminished 5th.

+1 for richard explaining the enharmonic rules better

[orbit2021]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

So the chords are right by notes (Minus how I wrote out E#'s and B#'s), I just got at them a different way, and it's better explained using 5ths. So Major Chords would become Root + Major 3rd + Perfect 5th. Minor Chords would be Root + Minor 3rd + Perfect 5th. And Diminished Chords would be Root + Minor 3rd + Diminished 5th?


Thanks so much!


-Troy

the minor chords you describe note wise, were correct but the intervals described above were not. as richard pointed out, minor chords are always perfect 5ths, unless of course they are aug/dim.

and by the way, if i am wrong about a minor chord being able to be aug, and major being able to be diminished, please let me know someone. does dim automatically infer a minor 3rd, and aug automatically infer a major 3rd?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by orbit2021

so Amin7 would be A C E G, Am6 A C E F, Amaj7 A C# E G#, Amaj6 A C# E F#

Actually, an Am6 chord is A C E F#. That is, the major 6th interval is used.

Originally Posted by orbit2021

now when we add the 9th, 11th, or 13th, i am not sure whether by default you add the extensions below it. for example, if you had a 13th chord, does it contain the 11th, 9th, and 7th extensions by default? im not sure on that one.

In theory, yes, you do, but in practice, the 11th is generally left out because it clashes with the 3rd (unless you elect to sharp, or augment, the 11th, in which case it sounds more euphonious). Also, depending on the instrument playing the chord, some of the notes may be left out while still getting the essence across. A guitarist, for example, may sometimes voice a C13 as C Bb E A, low to high, which as you see leaves out the 5th, 9th, and 11th but still generally has a "13th-y" effect.

[orbit2021]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Actually, an Am6 chord is A C E F#. That is, the major 6th interval is used.

Thank you Richard. Picking up my guitar quickly made me realize that what i wrote as am6 would have produced a minor 2nd and thus extreme dissonance.

So in chordal structure a minor 6th interval, at least when described in the context of a minor 6th chord, is not used? Which means that the interval of a minor 6th only exists when attempting to describe a physical interval? not as a chord quality? if that makes sense?

[JTE]

Well, there's a couple of ways to look at chord construction. One is the intervals, one is the way they're pulled from the diatonic majors scale of the root.

I assume you know how to figure out the notes in any diatonic major scale already (i.e., you know W W H W W W H cold). That means you know WHY it's a Bb, not an A#!!!

So, using the A major scale, it's A B C# D E F# G# A for 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 1(8)

Major Chord- A Major third with a minor third on top. That's 1, 3, 5. That's A C# E. A to C# is a major third; C# to E is a minor third.

Minor Chord- A minor third with a Major third on top. Thats 1, b3, 5; A C E; A to C is a minor third, and C to E is a major third.

Dominant7- Major then minor then minor. That's 1, 3, 5, b7, or A C# E G. Figure the intervals for yourself (a/k/a, "the rest is left as an exercise for the student"). Note that it's generally just called a seventh chord.

Major7- M/m/M; 1 3 5 7; A C# E G#

Minor7 m/M/m; 1 b3 5 b7; A C E G

Diminished- m/m/m 1, b3, 3b, bb7; A C Eb Gbb (yes, it's a double flat 7, NOT the sixth- that's because we're stacking thirds and the third from E something has to be G something, not F something).

Augmented- M/M 1, 3, #5; A C# E#. Why no augmented 7? Well, what's the major third above E#? Oh, it's A, back where we started.

After you have your head around this stuff, then harmonize a major scale. Write it out four times, starting up a third each line, like this...


C D E F G A B C

then
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

then
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

then finally you get
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

LOOK carefully at each of those stacks. Figure out for yourself WHY that first chord is called Cmaj7, WHY the second one is called Dmin7, etc. Except the one built on B. It's a Bmin7b5. Sometimes called a "half-diminished", but I think that's sloppy terminology. Calling it Bmin7b5 tells you exactly what it is. It's built on the root of B, it's minor chord so it has b3 (the D), and the fifth is flatted (giving you the F natural), But it's got a MAJOR third from the 5 to the 7, so it's NOT a diminshed chord.

Then you'll OWN exactly what a ii V I progression is. You'll know why those three chord DEFINE a key center.

jte

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by orbit2021

So in chordal structure a minor 6th interval, at least when described in the context of a minor 6th chord, is not used? Which means that the interval of a minor 6th only exists when attempting to describe a physical interval? not as a chord quality? if that makes sense?

Well, depends on how you look at it. Minor 6th intervals are all over the place. For example, if you look at a first inversion of a major chord, one pops right out. Consider a first inversion of C, which would be E G C; the interval from E to C is a minor 6th.

But if you mean a chord containing a note specified as being a minor 6th from the root, then I can't think of one off the top of my head, in standard practice anyway. Remember, however, that theoretical descriptors follow practice rather than precede it, and sometimes if someone's playing a weird chord, it might not be precisely and accurately describable in standard terms and you might have to use a nonstandard name for it rather than try to force it into a standard category. For example, I have seen chords notated as "Amb6" on charts. That's not really a "normal" chord name, at least according to my old Mel Bay chord book, but in the circumstances the chart writer probably considered it the best way he or she could come up with to describe what seemed to be happening harmonically.

[orbit2021]

Originally Posted by JTE

Diminished- m/m/m 1, b3, 3b, bb7; A C Eb Gbb (yes, it's a double flat 7, NOT the sixth- that's because we're stacking thirds and the third from E something has to be G something, not F something).

Augmented- M/M 1, 3, #5; A C# E#. Why no augmented 7? Well, what's the major third above E#? Oh, it's A, back where we started.

so this answers my question about whether dim/aug are inherently major/minor. and that makes sense when you describe the chord as stacked intervals, being that the intervals are R/m/m and R/M/M. i also just looked at the post PRIOR to this one, a reply from Richard...and i guess its possible to play diminished with a major 3rd but maybe there is not a standard notation for that? because A major diminished is not something ive heard haha

[JTE]

Well, "A major diminished" is wrong to me. If you mean an A major with a flat five, then that's what it's called. Ab5. That's A C# and Eb.

jte

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JTE

Except the one built on B. It's a Bmin7b5. Sometimes called a "half-diminished", but I think that's sloppy terminology. Calling it Bmin7b5 tells you exactly what it is. It's built on the root of B, it's minor chord so it has b3 (the D), and the fifth is flatted (giving you the F natural), But it's got a MAJOR third from the 5 to the 7, so it's NOT a diminshed chord.

Great post. I might just quibble about this one point. I'm not so sure "half-diminished" is such a sloppy term (though I prefer "half-diminished 7th"), because the chord is in fact based on a diminished triad, not a minor one. Because the triad defines the fundamental character of the chord, you could indeed say that the chord is technically diminished. To me, what's sloppy is that we so often use the term "diminished" to refer to what is more correctly called a "diminished 7th" chord (because it contains a 7th). I'm not throwing stones by any means, because I do this all the time too. Yeah, I'm a theory slob. Though I do try to remember to write "dim7" rather than just "dim" when I think of it.

If I had my druthers, I'd refer to chords like B D F A as "diminished minor 7th," but I'm perfectly aware that that would be an utterly pointless crusade, because the other terms are already so well established. In the meantime, I don't think "half-diminished 7th" is so bad, though in all honesty I almost invariably write m7b5 when I'm writing for other people.

[orbit2021]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, "A major diminished" is wrong to me. If you mean an A major with a flat five, then that's what it's called. Ab5. That's A C# and Eb.

jte

i got caught up in fancy terms i completely forgot about the simple flat 5 description. thanks man

[backline112]

I will do this because it's helps me refresh my memory.

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

Major Chord - Root + Major 3rd + minor 3rd (or Perfect 5th from the root, it seems. Correct.)
Minor Chord - Root + minor 3rd + Major 3rd (Major 6th from root maybe? No. Since you read the post on this forum, I believe it says how many steps is a major 3rd and a minor 3rd. A major 3rd is two whole tones or four semitones apart from the note in question. A minor 3rd is one and a half whole steps, or three semitones apart from the note in question. And if you apply the commutative rule that says: The order of factor doesn't alter the product, you'll see that it's the same amount of half steps from the root. It's just that on the Major Triad the Major 3rd is before the minor 3rd, and in the Minor Triad the Major 3rd is after the minor 3rd.)
Diminished Chord - Root + minor 3rd + minor 3rd (Minor 6th from root maybes? No. If you sum the amount of whole steps from the root to the second minor 3rd, you'll see that there are 3 whole steps in total. Root + 1.5 whole steps + 1.5 whole steps = 3 whole steps. That would be an Augmented 4th or a Diminished 5th from the root. People, correct me if I'm wrong.)

I won't correct your triads, because I would hinder your learning process. DIY.

B-D-F# (Why does B minor have an F#? Seems to be the only chord that doesn't fit into C Major, or any of the modes for C Major) I don't know . But it's like asking why does the F Major scale have a Bb. This might become a little more clear if you start studying the Circle of Fifths. I don't have it really clear but I see some kind of relationship. There's a hell of a #%&$@ lot of info on this forum about that. BUT DON'T READ IT! It'll confuse you. No, just kidding. But keep in mind that's it's simpler than it looks.

B-D-F (This fits into the C Major scale and its modes though. Is this just the way things are? Is the B scale just naturally a Diminished chord? I'm unsure because B is the 7th tone of C Major right? And I'm almost positive B is vii making it minor no?) Let's remember: The chord found naturally from the vii (subtonic) of a Major scale will always be a Diminished Chord.
Found naturally, means that you only use the Scale Notes (CMaj: ABCDEFG) to find these chords. So yes, you are right there. But I don't understand what you mean by asking: "Is the B scale just naturally a Diminished chord?"

Despite the errors, you are on the right path. Just keep investigating and figuring these things out early.

Originally Posted by Blake Bass

By keeping everthing in sharps you have some enharmonic mistakes.

Troy, he's right. Remember that Notes (or letters) can only be used ONCE on a scale, triad, etc. Meaning, Gb doesn't exist in G Major Scale, because the letter G is already used. A good way to see if a scale is written with #s or bs its to write it both ways, and see which way ensures the "Enharmonic Rules" apply. Of course, you can look it up on the Internetz but, where's the learning in that. You're doing good by doing this yourself on all the 12 keys. It'l give you more experience and a clearer understanding over those who don't do it.

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

I actually got it from the chord construction thread from the lessons and articles section on this forum

So the chords are right by notes (Minus how I wrote out E#'s and B#'s), I just got at them a different way, and it's better explained using 5ths. So Major Chords would become Root + Major 3rd + Perfect 5th. Minor Chords would be Root + Minor 3rd + Perfect 5th. And Diminished Chords would be Root + Minor 3rd + Diminished 5th?

Correct dude!

You're cool, just remember that Enharmonic rule, write them ALL out how I told you and by the time you finish you'll have understood. Probaly you'll need to write them all again to have a very clear understanding of which scales use sharps and which flats. But, I also recommend studying/investigating/discovering the Circle of Fifths. It's like magic. I hope this helped.

[backline112]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, there's a couple of ways to look at chord construction. One is the intervals, one is the way they're pulled from the diatonic majors scale of the root.

I assume you know how to figure out the notes in any diatonic major scale already (i.e., you know W W H W W W H cold). That means you know WHY it's a Bb, not an A#!!!

So, using the A major scale, it's A B C# D E F# G# A for 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 1(8)

Major Chord- A Major third with a minor third on top. That's 1, 3, 5. That's A C# E. A to C# is a major third; C# to E is a minor third.

Minor Chord- A minor third with a Major third on top. Thats 1, b3, 5; A C E; A to C is a minor third, and C to E is a major third.

Dominant7- Major then minor then minor. That's 1, 3, 5, b7, or A C# E G. Figure the intervals for yourself (a/k/a, "the rest is left as an exercise for the student"). Note that it's generally just called a seventh chord.

Major7- M/m/M; 1 3 5 7; A C# E G#

Minor7 m/M/m; 1 b3 5 b7; A C E G

Diminished- m/m/m 1, b3, 3b, bb7; A C Eb Gbb (yes, it's a double flat 7, NOT the sixth- that's because we're stacking thirds and the third from E something has to be G something, not F something).

Augmented- M/M 1, 3, #5; A C# E#. Why no augmented 7? Well, what's the major third above E#? Oh, it's A, back where we started.

After you have your head around this stuff, then harmonize a major scale. Write it out four times, starting up a third each line, like this...


C D E F G A B C

then
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

then
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

then finally you get
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

LOOK carefully at each of those stacks. Figure out for yourself WHY that first chord is called Cmaj7, WHY the second one is called Dmin7, etc. Except the one built on B. It's a Bmin7b5. Sometimes called a "half-diminished", but I think that's sloppy terminology. Calling it Bmin7b5 tells you exactly what it is. It's built on the root of B, it's minor chord so it has b3 (the D), and the fifth is flatted (giving you the F natural), But it's got a MAJOR third from the 5 to the 7, so it's NOT a diminshed chord.

Then you'll OWN exactly what a ii V I progression is. You'll know why those three chord DEFINE a key center.

jte

JTE OWNS.

Man, I was looking at this thing thinking thinking what the hell is to Harmonize... Is it when you take a root note and play the notes corresponding to the root overtones? I think chords sound "good" because they play each others harmonic overtones right?

And then I saw
B
G
E
C
and I was WHHOOOAA!!! I'll keep looking at this thing, cause I feel there's a lot of info hidden there. Almost like hieroglyphs sent from the sky by an unknown entity... lol

[droskobass]

Great Thread!

The Bass Grimoire is an Excellent reference for chords, intervals scales etc.

http://www.guitargrimoire.com/gt03.htm