a melodic minor question...

[joebar]

melodic minor and the dorian mode of a major scale are the same thing. so why are they called different things?
harmonic minor makes perfect sense to me, but i am stumped on this one
i need a eureka moment!

[polyrhythmia]

My understanding of melodic minor is a scale like this: A B C D E F# G# A ascending, and identical to natural minor descending--A G F E D C B A. And the Dorian mode is of course, would be D E F G A B C D.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by joebar

melodic minor and the dorian mode of a major scale are the same thing. so why are they called different things?
harmonic minor makes perfect sense to me, but i am stumped on this one
i need a eureka moment!

the minor triads are the same.....the melodic minor scale has the natural 6 and 7 ascending and descending

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by joebar

melodic minor and the dorian mode of a major scale are the same thing. so why are they called different things?
harmonic minor makes perfect sense to me, but i am stumped on this one
i need a eureka moment!

Because they're NOT the same thing.

Dorian mode has a lowered 7th. Melodic minor has a natural 7th. (in its ascending form)

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by polyrhythmia

My understanding of melodic minor is a scale like this: A B C D E F# G# A ascending, and identical to natural minor descending--A G F E D C B A. And the Dorian mode is of course, would be D E F G A B C D.

Dorian mode, by way of comparison (you changed keys, making it very unclear) would be

A B C D E F# G A

[BananaKing]

In relation to the Major scale, Dorian looks like this:

1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7

In relation to the Major Scale, Melodic Minor looks like this:

1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

You can think of it as a Dorian with a Major 7th if that helps.

[MalcolmAmos]

Question really is why? Why do we have three minor scales. I long ago decided natural minor was good enough for me and have stuck with it.

Sure makes minor modes easier.
Natural minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Aeolian..........1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Dorian...........1, 2, b3, 4, 5, ..6, b7 just raise the 6th
Phrygian.......1, b2,b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 just flat the 2

Do you use all three. I'm Country and Country is 99% major, or at least the Country we cover. Which do you use?

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Question really is why? Why do we have three minor scales. I long ago decided natural minor was good enough for me and have stuck with it.

Sure makes minor modes easier.
Natural minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Aeolian..........1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Dorian...........1, 2, b3, 4, 5, ..6, b7 just raise the 6th
Phrygian.......1, b2,b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 just flat the 2

Do you use all three. I'm Country and Country is 99% major, or at least the Country we cover. Which do you use?

Good question and I'll try to make it easy.

A Major tonality is based on the Major scale.

A Minor tonality is based on the minor harmonic scale because of the b6 AND Major 7 (Ab and B) that gives you the sound of a dominant G7 chord with a b9 which is a very important note in the sound of a minor tonality .........BUT........

Depending on the color or type of your I minor chord your 2 other scales can fit these.

C minor harmonic would fit a plain C minor or C minor Maj7
C minor natural or Aolien would fit a C minor7 or a plain Cminor as well. The choice is yours.
C minor melodic (jazz, going up and down the same way) would fit a plain C minor for a jazz sound or C minor6 or C minor Maj7.

i hope you understand a bit more where the choices come from.

[JTE]

Take the basic step of harmonizing the scales, to see what chords you get. If you harmonize the diatonic major scale you get chords in the following order... (Notes in C major)

I Maj7 (C E G B)
ii Min7 (D F A C)
iii Min7 (E G B D)
IV Maj7 (F A C E)
V Dom7 (G B D F)
vi min7 (A C E G)
vii min7b5 (B D F A)

Now, if you harmonize the natural minor scale, you get the same chords (because they're the same notes with only a different starting place). That gives your harmonized minor scale a problem. Why? Because now you have... (notes in A natural minor)

i min7 (A C E G)
ii min7b5 (B D F A)
III Maj7 (C E G B)
iv min7 (D F A C)
v min7 (E G B D)
VI MaJ7 (F A C E)
vii Dom7 (G B D F)

That dominant 7 in the vii chord is going to want to resolve to the Maj7 of the III, not to the one. BUT, if you raise the seventh of the scale a half step you get new chords... (notes in A harmonic minor)

i min7#5 (A C E G#)
ii min7b5 (B D F A)
III Maj7#5 (C E G# B)
iv min7 (D F A C)
V Dom7 (E G# B D)
VI Maj7 (F A C E)
VII dim Maj7 (G# B D F)

That does two things. It obliterates the 7 chord from having a strong pull to resolve to the 3, and it creates a V chord that wants to resolve to the one. This change to the natural minor was done to improve the harmony, hence its name being "harmonic minor". Of course the SOUND of the minor third interval between 6 and 7 is kind of jarring (it's also instant Richie Blackmoore too...) so if you raise the 6th a half step you smooth out the scale. That was done for melodic reasons, and the scale with the raised 6 is called the "melodic minor" for that reason (and don't let that rat-hole of discussion about the "jazz minor" and classical "melodic minor" start again, do a search if you're interested).

The OP is wrong of course when they assert that Dorian is the same as the melodic minor. Aeolian is the same as the natural minor and they're different names for the same collection of notes because modal music is different from chordal music- a key point missed in too many discussions of modes.

John

[MalcolmAmos]

Thanks. Do you use all three or settle on one more than the others?

[dougjwray]

It depends on the context.
I like words that begin with "x" and "q", but only use them when the conversation calls for it.

[Setebos]

Excellent explanation JTE!!!

[Richard Lindsey]

It's important to remember that although we talk about, and practice, three different types of minor scales, this does not mean that there are necessarily three different types of minor tonality or key. You can't always distinguish between the three so absolutely, and you don't always use one scale to the exclusion of the others, even within a single piece.

Sure, there's a good amount of music that may use one type of scale more than others, but a lot of the time, in a Western tonal context at least, it's probably better to think in terms of a "composite minor" that makes use of either a minor or a major 6th and 7th (IOW, that may include natural, harmonic, and melodic minor) as necessary. That's what a lot of the great composers did; for instance, in a piece that's unmistakably in, say D minor, you might find both Bb and B being used, as well as both C and C#. (HaVIC5 has a good post on this somewhere.)

And the ascending and descending aspects of the melodic minor scale are not used as rigidly in practice as the terminology suggests; for instance, you might see the major 6 and 7 even in a descending figure.

With respect to which one to use, you use the scale(s) that seem(s) to best fit the melodic and harmonic requirements of the music you're playing at any given moment. Some pieces may be navigable with just one, others with two, and still others with all three.

FWIW, I'm not addressing modal music here, just music that to some significant extent embodies conventional functional harmony.

[MalcolmAmos]

Thanks again. If it sounds good it is good.

[joebar]

Originally Posted by JTE

Take the basic step of harmonizing the scales, to see what chords you get. If you harmonize the diatonic major scale you get chords in the following order... (Notes in C major)

I Maj7 (C E G B)
ii Min7 (D F A C)
iii Min7 (E G B D)
IV Maj7 (F A C E)
V Dom7 (G B D F)
vi min7 (A C E G)
vii min7b5 (B D F A)

Now, if you harmonize the natural minor scale, you get the same chords (because they're the same notes with only a different starting place). That gives your harmonized minor scale a problem. Why? Because now you have... (notes in A natural minor)

i min7 (A C E G)
ii min7b5 (B D F A)
III Maj7 (C E G B)
iv min7 (D F A C)
v min7 (E G B D)
VI MaJ7 (F A C E)
vii Dom7 (G B D F)

That dominant 7 in the vii chord is going to want to resolve to the Maj7 of the III, not to the one. BUT, if you raise the seventh of the scale a half step you get new chords... (notes in A harmonic minor)

i min7#5 (A C E G#)
ii min7b5 (B D F A)
III Maj7#5 (C E G# B)
iv min7 (D F A C)
V Dom7 (E G# B D)
VI Maj7 (F A C E)
VII dim Maj7 (G# B D F)

That does two things. It obliterates the 7 chord from having a strong pull to resolve to the 3, and it creates a V chord that wants to resolve to the one. This change to the natural minor was done to improve the harmony, hence its name being "harmonic minor". Of course the SOUND of the minor third interval between 6 and 7 is kind of jarring (it's also instant Richie Blackmoore too...) so if you raise the 6th a half step you smooth out the scale. That was done for melodic reasons, and the scale with the raised 6 is called the "melodic minor" for that reason (and don't let that rat-hole of discussion about the "jazz minor" and classical "melodic minor" start again, do a search if you're interested).

The OP is wrong of course when they assert that Dorian is the same as the melodic minor. Aeolian is the same as the natural minor and they're different names for the same collection of notes because modal music is different from chordal music- a key point missed in too many discussions of modes.

John

THX JTE excellent description and very helpful.
also- i realized my mistake as i typed my message too soon about the Dorian mode.

i guess at the end of the day play what sounds good. but i still like to indulge into the theoretical side of things.

[boomtisk]

In my opinion, the most interesting thing in songs that are built around the harmonic minor scale is that the III chord shifts from minor to major and still comes off as incredibly "sad"-sounding. Check out the Beatles' "Yesterday" or "The House of the Rising Sun" for example. Lots of songs with a "sad" sound to them use this "trick" but you can also make it sound very jazzy.

Personally, I think it's cool to have multiple flavors of the minor scale. A fun exercise to do is choosing a simple song in a major key and "rework" the melody so it's in minor and see what type of minor it ends up being in if you do.

[joebar]

Originally Posted by boomtisk

In my opinion, the most interesting thing in songs that are built around the harmonic minor scale is that the III chord shifts from minor to major and still comes off as incredibly "sad"-sounding. Check out the Beatles' "Yesterday" or "The House of the Rising Sun" for example. Lots of songs with a "sad" sound to them use this "trick" but you can also make it sound very jazzy.

Personally, I think it's cool to have multiple flavors of the minor scale. A fun exercise to do is choosing a simple song in a major key and "rework" the melody so it's in minor and see what type of minor it ends up being in if you do.

i agree with those examples and that's what makes harmonic minor so interesting. actually, "The House..." was probably the first time that i noticed when i started playing, that the chords didn't follow the traditional A - minor scale; i needed to find out why.

[colcifer]

For those among us who study jazz, disregard the descending pattern mentioned; in jazz the scale has the same notes in both directions.

Mods, if you would close this please; I believe we've answered the question more times than necessary.