Melodic Minor scale

[Beast]

So, I've heard from one person that in classical music the melodic minor descends in a different pattern than it ascends, but in jazz this is not the case. Is this correct? I always assumed that it ascended/descended different everywhere, a scale is a scale.

[BakerJ]

I'm not much of a jazz player at the moment, so i can't tell you about the jazz side of it, but in common practice music the melodic minor ascends with a raised 6th and 7th, and descends as a natural minor scale, so an A melodic minor scale would be A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A, G, F, E, D, C, B, A.

[scotch]

When I was studying classical theory (almost 20 years ago) I was taught the melodic minor just like BakerJ posted. Jazz players that I work with now, however, have interpreted the melodic minor differently. They play it the same ascending & descending (I believe witha dominant (b) 7).

[Michael Case]

Yes, in jazz theory the melodic minor is played with both the raised 6th and 7th up and down.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Beast

So, I've heard from one person that in classical music the melodic minor descends in a different pattern than it ascends, but in jazz this is not the case. Is this correct? I always assumed that it ascended/descended different everywhere, a scale is a scale.

It descends in the natural minor in classical theory, because the melodic minor tweak is to give the half step leading tone for cadences... no need for it elsewhere.

[ryco]

What I don't understand is why the jazz version of the MM scale wasn't given another label/designation. Some do call it a "Jazz Minor".

But what's in a name

[mutedeity]

As far as naming scales go, a name is just a name really. Names are there to try and sum up the function of a certain series of notes for easy reference. Traditionally the scale known as melodic minor is a follow on from the diatonic function of the harmonic minor which is in turn a follow on from the natural minor.

Natural minor has no V7 chord until you alter the relative 7th to be major. This gives us the harmoinc minor with a V7, or dominant chord. Now, in a melodic sense we end up with a #2 interval between the 6th and 7th degrees. It was thought that by making the 6th degree major that the transition between the 6th and 7th degree would be melodically smoother when ascending and still give the V7 chord a place harmonically. The problem now becomes that descending the scale has all the hallmarks of the major scale structurally. The leading tone and P5th are the strongest indicators but the M6 and P4 further to make the descending scale sound like the major scale. The result is that when you play the m3 it sounds out of place. The solution is to play the b7 and b6th to set up the scale as minor. That way we can have our diatonic cake and eat it too. This way of thinking is based on the paradigm of diatonic harmony.

This kind of alteration can be applied to a number of different scales, though, and it is just that this particular approach has the diatonic reasoning behind it that it is formally described as having a different structure ascending to descending. I personally don't see that as much as a scale as a tonal methodology. On the other hand, in terms of nomenclature, strictly speaking the term "melodic minor" does reference that methodology.

As far as scales go there is no universal reason why you should have to alter a particular scale to conform to a certain diatonic paradigm either. The use of the "jazz minor" is the proof. There is no universal reason why you shouldn't alter a scale either in a given context. Once again though I would say that these alterations are more about methodology than about scales, in my opinion.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by ryco

What I don't understand is why the jazz version of the MM scale wasn't given another label/designation. Some do call it a "Jazz Minor".

But what's in a name

Even if they gave it another name people will still learn and think of it as MM ascending. I have heard if referenced as Jazz Minor, but someone always asked "what's that" and its back to MM ascending.

Also modes of the MM are used and get into even stranger names since as far as I know traditional theory never gets into, well my Piston and Persichetti books don't. The 4th mode of MM is the Lydian b7 scale that I was first taught as the Overtone scale and have heard other names for it. Then the 7th mode is the Altered scale or Super Locrian. I've seen names but can't find my list of their names.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by Beast

So, I've heard from one person that in classical music the melodic minor descends in a different pattern than it ascends, but in jazz this is not the case. Is this correct?

yes. Jazz is same up and down and it is sometimes referred to as Jazz Minor.

[slybass3000]

The modes from the melodic minor "jazz" are very useful for playing over certain chords. If you would altered these scales going down you wouldn't be able to use them as modes.

The most useful IMO are in the scale of C min jazz the :

I for I min6 or minMaj7 Cmin6 or CmiMaj7

II for a dom7 sus4 b9 D7sus4(b9) or Cml/D

IV for a lydian dominant F13(#11) or functioning like one., also often found in the triton sub of an altered dominant.

VI for a locrian #2 Amin7(b5) in the case of a min7(b5) resolving on a major chord

VII for the "all dress" dominant chord B+7(+9). Altered scale,super locrian or diminushed whole-tone scale are some of its names.


SB