Melodic minor scale vs natural minor scale.

[NickInMesa]

I am taking music theory lessons to cover some of the skills I did not build when I was younger (you know how it is).

My teacher wrote me two scales to work on, one being a major scale:

ABC#DEF#GA (no issue)

And a minor scale:

ABCDEF#G#A

Later on at my home, I realized this was not the usual minor scale I know, which is simply ABCDEFGA.

His answer is that the scale he showed me was not incorrect, and that it is the most basic musically correct minor scale there is: the melodic minor scale. And that the note that defines a minor scale is the third, that I was speaking of a natural minor scale, the one most people use, and that he was going to introduce that next time.

Ok, I felt like an idiot although an enthusiastic one.

So what's basically the difference?

Because the 7th is not the same and I am used to having the minor 7th 5 steps up from the root note, while the major 7th is 5 1/2.

Also that usually when someone talks about the 7th, it is usually the minor one, as the major one does not exactly sound as good. And I usually don't play it when I improvize.

Thanks!

[mrniceguy715]

I never really thought about how many times I play scales like that when I read them out the real books I just look read the key sig and adjust the 7 accordingly. Maybe if I look at it that way I would make some different licks? But in reality usually I dont even go for the 7 until a few times thru the form

[HaVIC5]

The whole thing with minor scales is a complicated one, but here's a brief history/understanding of why both of you are right. It started back in the Renaissance when theories of harmony were first being developed out of polyphony using the modes. Composers found that the ionian mode (major scale) gave them the most options when creating pleasing harmonic progressions because of the leading tone, or natural (major) seventh degree of the scale. The V-I cadence that we all know and love came from this. They liked the sound of the natural seventh going up to the tonic so much that they started briefly changing notes of the other modes to reflect the natural seven going to one in something they called musica ficta, or a chromatic note. They weren't part of the scale, but they were used because they created a pleasing sound (the natural seventh resolving to the tonic). For whatever reason, as the years went by, the only mode that they kept using with the musica ficta was the aeolian mode, which you may know as the natural minor. However, once you made the lowered seventh a natural seventh, you have the harmonic minor.

Get it? The natural seventh was raised for the pleasing harmonic cadence of V-I (V major, not V minor, which you would get with pure aeolian), so thats how you get harmonic minor. The reason for melodic minor comes from this lineage. If you raise the seventh degree of the minor scale, you get an odd interval between the lowered sixth and the seventh. For example, if I were to spell A harmonic minor....

A B C D E F G# A

...the interval between F and G# is an augmented second. This is a very unusual and awkward interval for singing, and since most music was vocal at the time that these theories were being developed, the augmented second was heavily eschewed. Even though its enharmonic to a minor third, in context the sound of the augmented second has quite a different character. So, in order to keep the important natural seventh (G# in the key of A minor), you would raise the sixth degree to smooth out the linear melodic contour, and then you have melodic minor. In practice, composers used all three minors simultaneously in what theorists have called the "composite" minor.

This is all well and good, and its a nice classical theory lesson for you, but how does it apply to playing contemporary music? Well, this is why you're both right. All music which is functionally tonal comes from the classical tradition. Functionally tonal means that the chords within a chord progression all tend to lead to a V to I cadence. This means if you're playing any music that has a V chord going to a I chord, it's tonal, and its functional. These are the circumstances where you would more likely than not find the melodic minor. Since the natural minor lacks the natural 7 that is so vital for the V chord, melodic minor shows up as a more "true" minor scale. However, if you're playing music which is not "functionally tonal", like music that just has one chord, or if you're playing music based upon a riff, or if you're playing music that has a chord progression, but no V-I cadence or any kind of V major chord in it, than natural minor is more of the "true" minor scale. What it comes down to is the V chord. If you're playing music with a V7 or V major, think melodic minor.

This is an oversimplification of a very complicated subject, but it gives you the gist of whats going on.

[JTE]

Here, to make it clear, do this.

Harmonize each scale. You do know what "harmonize" means, right? OK, if not, it means to stack thirds from the scale on top of each other to build four-note chords.

Using A natural minor you get:

Amin7, Bmin7b5, Cmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, and G7. Don't take my word for it, build 'em yourself and check my work!

That G7 pulls your hear to the Cmaj, not the Amin7. So, as haVIC5 says, another scale was made to fix that. If you raise the G to G#, you change every chord that has a G in it... Now you get

Amin/Maj7, Bmin7b5, Caug, Dmin7, E7, Fmaj7, G#dim. The G7 is obliterated so it doesn't pull to the C chord. And the E7 sets up a strong pull to the Amin7. That makes the harmony work much better for most people's ears. That's why its called the "Harmonic Minor"- these names don't generally come out of nowhere! However, that scale sound weird (of course "weird" is relative- where would Richie Blackmore be without the Harmonic minor?!). The minor 3rd (technically augmented 2nd as HavIC5 explains very neatly) is weird, they made changes to the Harmonic minor.

By raising the 6 (F) a half-step, you've smoothed out the melodic problems with the Hamronic minor. And since the problem with the meolody was generally associated with ascending, the classic melodic minor uses F# ascending and F natural descending.

The OP's teacher is partially correct. The basic point of the minor is the flat 3, so just taking a diatonic major scale and flatting the third seems to be right. However, the teacher is a complete moron for telling anyone it's "the minor scale". It's a particular minor scale and the teacher should have been explicit in naming it correctly. Convention is that if one just says "minor scale" they mean the natural minor.

That's as stupid as the book I saw in the early '80s that showed a pentatonic minor scale and told guitarists it was "the major scale". Had the author said that he meant it's the main scale used in blues and rock guitar soling he'd been OK. That's what he MEANT by "major" in this context (it was clearly the pentatonic minor as he was demonstrating it for soloing over a 12-bar in A). That kind of sloppy terminology causes as much confusion and bad teaching as the idea that modes are the be-all and end-all for unlocking music.

jte

[NickInMesa]

Thanks, JTE, but don't call my teacher a moron, that's for me to decide

Quite a bit to digest, right there. I need to learn theory no matter what, I believe that's now why I am limited as a bassist.

Thanks!

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by JTE

That kind of sloppy terminology causes as much confusion and bad teaching as the idea that modes are the be-all and end-all for unlocking music.

OK JTE, who ever wrote that "modes are the be-all and end-all for unlocking music"? In all the discussions with you that I've participated in, I certainly never wrote anything remotely like that.

HaVIC5 gave a very clear description of the minor scales. Here's mine:

Note that, as JTE pointed out, the 3rd is always flat in each of these 3 scales, which is what transforms major to minor:

MELODIC MINOR

• take the major Ionian (I) scale, flatten the 3rd
• this is also essentially the Dorian (II) scale but with a natural (major) 7th

HARMONIC MINOR

• take the major Ionian (I) scale, flatten the 3rd, and 6th

NATURAL MINOR== RELATIVE MINOR (i.e. A natural minor is the relative minor of C)== AEOLIAN MODE (VI)

• take the major Ionian (I) scale, flatten the 3rd, 6th, and 7th

I mention the modes only for completeness sake, not to promote them as the "be-all and end-all". There's nothing wrong with adding knowledge and insight, as each of us sees fit.

[HaVIC5]

By raising the 6 (F) a half-step, you've smoothed out the melodic problems with the Hamronic minor. And since the problem with the meolody was generally associated with ascending, the classic melodic minor uses F# ascending and F natural descending.

That's a common misconception that academia has put forward about the nature of the melodic minor scale - that you use the natural 6+7 when ascending melodically and the lowered sixth and seventh when descending. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, when classical musicians learn their scales, they learn to play the melodic minor scale this way when going up...

A B C D E F# G# A (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7)

...and this way when going down (natural minor)...

A G F E D C B A

It actually was a decision that instrumental pedagogues made to simplistically explain how minor keys work in that it can change depending on the melodic circumstances. If you do any analysis of any common practice classical music you'll see that there are plenty of instances where the melodic minor "ascending" scale descending and when the natural minor "descending" scale ascends. Without going too much further into it, what it boils down to is that for whenever the melodic material is "dominant" - that is to that that whenever the chord of the moment for the melody is a V chord, a V7 chord, a viio7 chord, or any other kind of dominant-functioning chord - the "ascending scale" is used but only when the melody links the 5th, 6th and 7th degrees together linearly.

Another way that it can be explained is that the "default" minor scale for classical music is the harmonic minor with scale degrees b6 and 7. I like this system a lot even though its not 100% historically true, because you can have the "default scale", and then have those two degrees be variable and change them according to some basic rules. There is more nuance to this, of course, but really, this is all you need to know unless you have a burning desire to write fugal counterpoint.

1. 7 has a melodic need to resolve up to 1
2. b6 has a melodic need to resolve down to 5
3. Because of this, b6 cannot go to 7 since their resolutions conflict, and that it creates an awkward #2 interval. (Exception: Diminished arpeggios)
4. Natural 6 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with 7.
5. b7 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with b6.

This is just for classical music, btw. Jazz musicians and popular musicians took these same concepts, distilled them, and then re-created a new system based upon it. I talk a little about how to tackle the minor key in my recent lesson, if you'd like to get some practical ideas on the matter.

LESSON: Soloing in minor keys

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Asher S

OK JTE, who ever wrote that "modes are the be-all and end-all for unlocking music"? In all the discussions with you that I've participated in, I certainly never wrote anything remotely like that.

HaVIC5 gave a very clear description of the minor scales. Here's mine:

Note that, as JTE pointed out, the 3rd is always flat in each of these 3 scales, which is what transforms major to minor:

MELODIC MINOR == "JAZZ MINOR"

• take the major Ionian (I) scale, flatten the 3rd
• this is also essentially the Dorian (II) scale but with a natural (major) 7th

HARMONIC MINOR

• take the major Ionian (I) scale, flatten the 3rd, and 6th

NATURAL MINOR== RELATIVE MINOR== AEOLIAN MODE (VI)

• take the major Ionian (I) scale, flatten the 3rd, 6th, and 7th

I mention the modes only for completeness sake, not to promote them as the "be-all and end-all". There's nothing wrong with adding knowledge and insight, as each of us sees fit.

No. No no no. Your equivalency test returns a value of FALSE.

Melodic Minor != Jazz minor. Melodic minor in the classical sense has an altered 6th and 7th degree when ascending and a natural 6th and 7th when descending. A Jazz Melodic Minor has an altered 6th and 7th both ascending and descending.

Harmonic Minor is the natural minor scale with a raised 7th scale degree.

Natural Minor != Relative Minor. That right there is a perfect case of apples and oranges. C natural minor is not the relative key to C major.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

No. No no no. Your equivalency test returns a value of FALSE.

Melodic Minor != Jazz minor. Melodic minor in the classical sense has an altered 6th and 7th degree when ascending and a natural 6th and 7th when descending. A Jazz Melodic Minor has an altered 6th and 7th both ascending and descending.

Harmonic Minor is the natural minor scale with a raised 7th scale degree.

Natural Minor != Relative Minor. That right there is a perfect case of apples and oranges. C natural minor is not the relative key to C major.

Well, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but mine is all referenced in "The Total Jazz Bassist", by David Overthrow (Berklee College of Music) and Tim Ferguson (NYU).

Specifically

p.29: The Natural Minor Scale (yes, you are correct, that the C Natural Minor Scale is not the relative minor of C. A Natural Minor is the relative minor of C. I should have made that point clearer). "The natural minor scale is the Aeolian mode".

p.30: The Harmonic Minor Scale ... "is like a natural minor scale but with a natural 7th". Is this not the same thing as Ionian with flat 3rd and 6th? I presented my info as such to show the progressive addition of flattened 3rd, 6th, and 7th to the Ionian scale (note the bold type).

p.31: "The melodic minor scale, also known as the jazz minor scale, is like a natural minor scale with a natural 6th and 7th. You can also think of the melodic minor scale as a major scale with a flat 3rd."

So, onlyclave, if you still take issue with these facts, take it up with David Overthrow in HIS forum:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f166/

[JTE]

A. I wasn't referring to specific poster's comments regarding modes. It was intended as a comment addressing a common misconception that modes are an answer to situations where I find them to be overly confusing and inappropriate.

B. Perhaps "moron" is too strong, but if the teacher is using terminology that SOUNDS like convention, but not in the conventionally accepted manner, then they are spreading confusion. As teaching is supposed to be clarification, not confusion, I will be prone to disparaging them.

C. I learned the distinction between ascending melodic minor and descending melodic minor somewhere back in the '70s. In the world I learned from the Jazz Minor is NOT synonomous with the Melodic minor. HavIC5's discussion of the development is more germaine to the topic than the huffing and puffing that at least one on-line resource makes no distinction between the two.

jte

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by JTE

HavIC5's discussion of the development is more germaine to the topic than the huffing and puffing that at least one on-line resource makes no distinction between the two.

I was not "huffing and puffing". I was simply supplying a documented reference to my initial post. I'd like to point out that it is you, not I, whose posts include "moron", "stupid", and "sloppy". If you read my posts, they are always respectful and mature...

BTW- it's not an "on-line resource". It's a published, edited, tangible book sitting right here on my table, authored by 2 professional & academic musicians who have more credibility than the lot of us combined.

My final point was this: Feel free to disagree with these statements, but please take it to the source that I provided. If Mr. Overthrow agrees that the point is in error, then I defer to all of your collective expertise. However at this point, all you have to go on is your collective beliefs vs. a documented, edited textbook. In my profession, that's no contest.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Asher S

Well, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but mine is all referenced in "The Total Jazz Bassist", by David Overthrow (Berklee College of Music) and Tim Ferguson (NYU).

Specifically

p.29: The Natural Minor Scale (yes, you are correct, that the C Natural Minor Scale is not the relative minor of C. A Natural Minor is the relative minor of C. I should have made that point clearer). "The natural minor scale is the Aeolian mode".

p.30: The Harmonic Minor Scale ... "is like a natural minor scale but with a natural 7th". Is this not the same thing as Ionian with flat 3rd and 6th? I presented my info as such to show the progressive addition of flattened 3rd, 6th, and 7th to the Ionian scale (note the bold type).

p.31: "The melodic minor scale, also known as the jazz minor scale, is like a natural minor scale with a natural 6th and 7th. You can also think of the melodic minor scale as a major scale with a flat 3rd."

So, onlyclave, if you still take issue with these facts, take it up with David Overthrow in HIS forum:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=166

Hey man, I've never heard of David Overthrow. I was just responding to the inaccuracies in your post. Stop deflecting.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Hey man, I've never heard of David Overthrow. I was just responding to the inaccuracies in your post. Stop deflecting.

Well, OK, but I was not "deflecting". You rightly questioned the (in)accuracies of my post, and I responded with the source of my information. As I wrote to JTE, feel free to disagree, but please back up your information with a credible resource.

[JTE]

Well, I don't have my elementary music theory book from 1976 any longer so I can't cite its references. And I suppose Wikipedia isn't valid for Asher S, but here's a link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

And here's another reference...

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdiction...inorscale.html

jte

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, I don't have my elementary music theory book from 1976 any longer so I can't cite its references. And I suppose Wikipedia isn't valid for Asher S, but here's a link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

And here's another reference...

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdiction...inorscale.html

jte

Now THOSE are on-line resources...

... and neither of those address the question at hand: Is the melodic minor equivalent to the "jazz minor scale".

Plus, you know that anyone with internet access can edit Wikipedia, right?

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Asher S

Now THOSE are on-line resources...

... and neither of those address the question at hand: Is the melodic minor equivalent to the "jazz minor scale".

Plus, you know that anyone with internet access can edit Wikipedia, right?

No. The Jazz Minor is altered both ascending and descending. Melodic Minor is altered ascending and unaltered descending. See HaVIC5's excellent reason several posts above this one.

Summary: It's easier to sing the melodic minor in tune, hence its existence.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

No. The Jazz Minor is altered both ascending and descending. Melodic Minor is altered ascending and unaltered descending. See HaVIC5's excellent reason several posts above this one.

Summary: It's easier to sing the melodic minor in tune, hence its existence.

OK- that sounds reasonable... Do you have a credible source for that information?

I know I'm being a PITA, but without accurate references, incorrect information perpetuates, and then that long stream of misinformation becomes common knowledge and "fact".

[NickInMesa]

Do you guys understand that the purpose of my post was not to see another theory war but to get some simple answers (even on a very complex topic) to my question?

Although I am educated and work in engineering, and therefore have the brains to comprehend this if I really study it, I am at 101 level right now and this type of arguments will not help me, or anyone else who is at my level and who is trying also to understand this type of stuff.

Thanks a lot for understanding. And thanks also for the help.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by NickInMesa

Do you guys understand that the purpose of my post was not to see another theory war but to get some simple answers (even on a very complex topic) to my question?

Although I am educated and work in engineering, and therefore have the brains to comprehend this if I really study it, I am at 101 level right now and this type of arguments will not help me, or anyone else who is at my level and who is trying also to understand this type of stuff.

Thanks a lot for understanding. And thanks also for the help.

I think we all respect that Nick. I am just trying to engage in respectful debate (not argument), with one goal being to ensure the accuracy of the information presented to you and other readers.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

That's a common misconception that academia has put forward about the nature of the melodic minor scale - that you use the natural 6+7 when ascending melodically and the lowered sixth and seventh when descending. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, when classical musicians learn their scales, they learn to play the melodic minor scale this way when going up...

A B C D E F# G# A (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7)

...and this way when going down (natural minor)...

A G F E D C B A

It actually was a decision that instrumental pedagogues made to simplistically explain how minor keys work in that it can change depending on the melodic circumstances. If you do any analysis of any common practice classical music you'll see that there are plenty of instances where the melodic minor "ascending" scale descending and when the natural minor "descending" scale ascends. Without going too much further into it, what it boils down to is that for whenever the melodic material is "dominant" - that is to that that whenever the chord of the moment for the melody is a V chord, a V7 chord, a viio7 chord, or any other kind of dominant-functioning chord - the "ascending scale" is used but only when the melody links the 5th, 6th and 7th degrees together linearly.

Another way that it can be explained is that the "default" minor scale for classical music is the harmonic minor with scale degrees b6 and 7. I like this system a lot even though its not 100% historically true, because you can have the "default scale", and then have those two degrees be variable and change them according to some basic rules. There is more nuance to this, of course, but really, this is all you need to know unless you have a burning desire to write fugal counterpoint.

1. 7 has a melodic need to resolve up to 1
2. b6 has a melodic need to resolve down to 5
3. Because of this, b6 cannot go to 7 since their resolutions conflict, and that it creates an awkward #2 interval. (Exception: Diminished arpeggios)
4. Natural 6 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with 7.
5. b7 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with b6.

This is just for classical music, btw. Jazz musicians and popular musicians took these same concepts, distilled them, and then re-created a new system based upon it. I talk a little about how to tackle the minor key in my recent lesson, if you'd like to get some practical ideas on the matter.

LESSON: Soloing in minor keys

Excellent and very useful post.