Memorizing chords and scales

[Pablo Fanque]

As a beginner, I'm just starting to tackle scales. Not surprisingly, I'm learning scales in C Major and C Minor.

I'm finding it relatively easy to move through the scales and hit the notes. I do buzz the frets a bit with my 4th finger, but otherwise I feel pretty good coordination-wise, especially if I'm warmed up. My short fingers make reaching on my full scale fretboard somewhat tricky but I seem to be getting better/more coordinated.

What I'm starting to fret about (pun intended) is remembering the notes and names of the scales. I can see and hear the difference between lydian and mixolydian. But I don't remember which notes are flatted in one versus the other. I also don't have memorized the names of the scales. I still have to count through the chord to find my 3rds, 5ths and 7ths, at least some of the time.

How long is it going to take before remembering this stuff starts to sink in? I think I get about 4 hours -- could be a little more -- of practice time in during a week.

Am I worrying about this too much?

I LOVE PLAYING the scales but memorizing stuff feels like school.

[kingbee]

It might not be the answer you're hoping for, but it just takes lots of time and repetition. Eventually your ears and fingers will start to memorize the stuff for you.

One thing that might help with your modes is to play through your major scales starting on new scale degrees. So play your C-to-C scale starting on C, then play the same notes but starting and ending on the next higher scale degree.

So in other words C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C up and down, then D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D up and down, then E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E, etc. Eventually youll end up playing a C scale an octave higher than where you started. Now do it all in reverse.

Just shed the crap out of this stuff day after day and you'll start to internalize it.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by kingbee

It might not be the answer you're hoping for, but it just takes lots of time and repetition. Eventually your ears and fingers will start to memorize the stuff for you.

One thing that might help with your modes is to play through your major scales starting on new scale degrees. So play your C-to-C scale starting on C, then play the same notes but starting and ending on the next higher scale degree.

So in other words C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C up and down, then D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D up and down, then E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E, etc. Eventually youll end up playing a C scale an octave higher than where you started. Now do it all in reverse.

Just shed the crap out of this stuff day after day and you'll start to internalize it.

+1

Everyone of us progresses at our own pace. It can be boring, so try these tips:

• when playing scales, concentrate on making every note as musical as possible, i.e. best tone, in time with a metronome or drum machine etc.
• play the scales against a blues progression (try the stuff I uploaded in this thread: 12 bar blues practice mp3s, all 12 keys). It won't sound like a solo, but it will help you play musically and will keep your interest a bit longer
• really listen to each interval so that you train your ears. Eventually, if you play a random note anywhere on the fretboard, you should be able to instinctively recognize the sound of a major third, a perfect 5th, a major 6th etc, and play that interval correctly right off the bat. That will go a long way towards playing by ear and improvising melodies you hear in your head.

[Pablo Fanque]

Thanks, guys, for the responses.

I actually ENJOY doing the scales I'm learning. There's a beauty in it (sorry if that sounds corny.)

But the idea of memorizing anything is what seems a bit difficult.

I think what you have suggested is that doing it enough, I'll memorize the sounds and feel.

I'm not naturally gifted musically, but I can tell (hear) when a guitar or bass is out of tune. That's from years of tuning my guitar with a pitch pipe and playing (I've never used an electronic tuner.) I s'pose it's similar to that.

[Michael Campbel]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

Thanks, guys, for the responses.

I actually ENJOY doing the scales I'm learning. There's a beauty in it (sorry if that sounds corny.)

Don't feel alone; I'm a bass and scales newbie and I'm quite enjoying learning scales too.

I'm learning from the same guy that taught Pacman the "sure fire scale practice method" (see the sticky thread above), so I'm learning it via that method.

It's actually quite fun (to me)! The beauty of that "box" method is that when you learn one major scale, you've learned them all, starting at any point in the scale. (And thus, even if you don't know it yet, have learned all the modes, too.)

[JTE]

Well, I'm the kind of person who never equated "memorization" with "learning". I didn't sit down to memorize every note, scale, etc. But I learned them. It's like learning what notes are in the key of A versuse memorizing them. I play in A a lot, so I learned that it's A B C# D E F# G# A. Now I don't play much in Db, but I can figure out the notes in that key in a second. And if I was doing examples or playing in Db I'd KNOW that it's Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db. That's becasue I KNOW that a major scale is W W H W W W H.

Same with chords. I can figure out D13b5b9 is I need to, but that's becasue I LEARNED that a dominant chord is 1 3 5 b7 with extensions of thirds.

And I know the fingerboard really well because I learned music all over it. Just about any riff. lick, line that I play, I play in different positions. Not just move it up a fret to play it in a different key, but the same key in different positions with different fingerings.

Bottom line is learn MUSIC on the bass, and the stuff like what notes, where the notes in an Amaj7 are, etc. will become second nature to you. But that's NOT the same as memorizing anything.

jte

[Michael Case]

Spend a little time writing the scales, modes, and arpeggios out in standard notation. That will really help you clarify things. Also think of the modes as the major scale starting on different notes; in other words F Lydian is basically C major starting on F so it's F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F. You G Mixolydian is C major starting on G, so you run C major on G. You can do this with all scales. The best learning device for me was finding the relationships between scales, modes, and arpeggios. Once I approached it this way I really got both in my head/hands and my ear.

Also, spend time learning bass lines, melodies, and solos this will give you a sense of how these concepts equal music. Get Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" and transcribe some of Miles' solos and Paul Chambers' bass lines. Get your hands on a copy of the chord chart for the songs you're transcribing so you can spend some time analyzing them and really get an intellectual sense of how scales, modes, and arpeggios work.

I hope this isn't too long winded.

[greenboy]

Since a fretboard/fingerboard is PATTERN-oriented one really doesn't need a lot of memorization - that happens naturally in the course of applying knowledge. Primarily ones needs to know where notes are on the 'board - which is vastly aided by recognizing the patterns/relationships - and they need to know the principles of how chords and scales are constructed.

A lot easier to deal with on bass or guitar than it is on a wind instrument if one is just beginning on the voyage.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Since a fretboard/fingerboard is PATTERN-oriented one really doesn't need a lot of memorization - that happens naturally in the course of applying knowledge. Primarily ones needs to know where notes are on the 'board - which is vastly aided by recognizing the patterns/relationships - and they need to know the principles of how chords and scales are constructed.

A lot easier to deal with on bass or guitar than it is on a wind instrument if one is just beginning on the voyage.

Yes, but do you agree that it is a good idea to get away from the visual aspect as soon as possible and work on the aural aspect? After all if you're sight reading you can't be looking at your neck.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

Yes, but do you agree that it is a good idea to get away from the visual aspect as soon as possible and work on the aural aspect? After all if you're sight reading you can't be looking at your neck.

Physical patterns are not merely visual - they work well with "muscle memory". If I am sight-reading or playing and I am playing a root and am told by the sheet transcription to next play a major third, or am playing by ear and would like to next play a major third - I don't NEED to look at the neck to know that the major third is on the next string, one fret closer to the nut. Likewise, I know where the 5th, dominant 7th or any other scalic or chromatic interval or chord component will occur in several octaves, with several practical alternate fingerings also outlined by THEIR patterns.

[Zombbg4]

Just keep practicing. Vocalize the the note names, degrees, scale names ect...when you're laying in bed at night or sitting in a boring class run scales and appegios in your head. The mental part is the most difficult, so practice that aspect as much as you can.

[greenboy]

Yep. Singing what you can play is an invaluable aid. And it too draws on knowledge of the relationships outlined in chord and scale construction.

Relativity and shifting patterns go uh, hand in hand.

[kingbee]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Physical patterns are not merely visual - they work well with "muscle memory". If I am sight-reading or playing and I am playing a root and am told by the sheet transcription to next play a major third, or am playing by ear and would like to next play a major third - I don't NEED to look at the neck to know that the major third is on the next string, one fret closer to the nut. Likewise, I know where the 5th, dominant 7th or any other scalic or chromatic interval or chord component will occur in several octaves, with several practical alternate fingerings also outlined by THEIR patterns.

I understand that this is a totally valid way of navigating the fingerboard and there are lots of little references that we all use to make sure we're nailing the notes we want. But I still think that just focusing on the geometry of it all without knowing the actual notes you're playing is going to limit your speed and expressiveness. I think just memorizing those stupid fret posters is a waste of time, but you're still eventually going to want to know where to play every Eb on the neck.

[two fingers]

When I taught lessons I devided my students' practice time (for beginners) into two distinct parts. One part was finger excercises. Do a search online for permutations. They would be a GREAT practice for you at this point (might help clear up some of the buzz from your fourth finger). The second part was scales. Play them SLOWLY. SAY the name of each note outloud as you play them. That will help you remember faster.

Oooops...I guess there were THREE parts. After you do the finger work (part one) and the brain work (part two) then take a few minutes and just NOODLE! What I mean by that is do something FUN! Find a TAB online and work on part of your favorite song (even if it's WAY too difficult). Just being able to play something from your favorite artist will be fun and exciting and keep you PUMPED UP! Best of luck and swing by any time with more questions!!!!!!!

P.S. I'm not saying at all that if you don't do it my way that you're wrong. Take a little from each of the very exprienced people on this forum and run with it! Nothing would be cooler than our sharing a video of you on YouTube blowing us all away in 10 years!

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by kingbee

I understand that this is a totally valid way of navigating the fingerboard and there are lots of little references that we all use to make sure we're nailing the notes we want. But I still think that just focusing on the geometry of it all without knowing the actual notes you're playing is going to limit your speed and expressiveness.

NOWHERE did I say that one should focus on the geometry to the exclusion of what's actually going on harmonically. In fact I think it was in this thread that I said knowing chord and scale/mode construction implicitly is of prime importance (and what makes it all real).

The PATTERNS themselves are tools to enact what one knows of the harmonic and scalic relationships, and they have a one to one correspondence just as many things in nature do, when examined scientifically. And knowing what patterns fit what scales and chords in one place on the neck easily transposes to ANYPLACE on the neck, which is how this aids in less memorization - then one isn't treating the entire neck as a rote memorization obstacle.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

... Also think of the modes as the major scale starting on different notes; in other words F Lydian is basically C major starting on F so it's F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F. You G Mixolydian is C major starting on G, so you run C major on G.

Well, I think this is exactly the wrong way to study modes. That's why there's so much confusion over what modes are good for and what they're an unnecassary additonal layer of confusion for.

Instead of learning C Ionian the D Dorian etc., learn them all from the root of C. So you know that C Ionian is distinct from D Dorian even though they have the same notes. And that's a lot easier to do by learning C Ionian then C Dorian and focusing on the differences between the two.

Of course, this has little do with memorization (I've already poste my rant about that).

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, I think this is exactly the wrong way to study modes. That's why there's so much confusion over what modes are good for and what they're an unnecassary additonal layer of confusion for.

Instead of learning C Ionian the D Dorian etc., learn them all from the root of C. So you know that C Ionian is distinct from D Dorian even though they have the same notes. And that's a lot easier to do by learning C Ionian then C Dorian and focusing on the differences between the two.

Of course, this has little do with memorization (I've already poste my rant about that).

I'm totally with you on that, JTE. I was contemplating a post of like content. A lot of people seem to get the wrong idea entirely unless they have a good book or teacher that puts it all in context.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, I think this is exactly the wrong way to study modes. That's why there's so much confusion over what modes are good for and what they're an unnecassary additonal layer of confusion for.

Instead of learning C Ionian the D Dorian etc., learn them all from the root of C. So you know that C Ionian is distinct from D Dorian even though they have the same notes. And that's a lot easier to do by learning C Ionian then C Dorian and focusing on the differences between the two.

Of course, this has little do with memorization (I've already poste my rant about that).

+1

The right way to study modes is to understand how they work and how they can un-complicate things sometimes, and not to just write them off as confusing.

For example, if you're reading a chart and up pops a D# diminished chord (eg D# b3 b5 b7), and you can't quite remember which minor scale(s) are diatonic with that, remembering that the VII mode is the chord scale for the dim chord allows you to quickly visualize and tap the E major (Ionian) scale that JTE is emphasizing.

So a little bit of modal knowledge can sometimes save you by reducing complexity.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by two fingers

When I taught lessons I devided my students' practice time (for beginners) into two distinct parts. One part was finger excercises. Do a search online for permutations. They would be a GREAT practice for you at this point (might help clear up some of the buzz from your fourth finger). The second part was scales. Play them SLOWLY. SAY the name of each note outloud as you play them. That will help you remember faster.

Oooops...I guess there were THREE parts. After you do the finger work (part one) and the brain work (part two) then take a few minutes and just NOODLE! What I mean by that is do something FUN! Find a TAB online and work on part of your favorite song (even if it's WAY too difficult). Just being able to play something from your favorite artist will be fun and exciting and keep you PUMPED UP! Best of luck and swing by any time with more questions!!!!!!!

P.S. I'm not saying at all that if you don't do it my way that you're wrong. Take a little from each of the very exprienced people on this forum and run with it! Nothing would be cooler than our sharing a video of you on YouTube blowing us all away in 10 years!

I'm kind of following your method.

My written source is Bass Guitar For Dummies, which has taught me a ton. In fact, it's why I'm worried (lack of a better term) about the memorization issue. The book doesn't say it, but it seems to me that just fingering the scales without knowing their names of the differences between Dorian and Aeolian, for instance, won't get you very far. But that's maybe just my assumption.

So, I work on my scales AFTER I do some permutations. For those I just work all fingers, in order, on each string. 1-2-3-4, 1-3-4-2, 1-4-2-3, 1-4-3-2, etc. etc.

I've told myself I want to learn a song a week. That's a bit harder to do because I can always have my scales in front of me but not necessarily tabs or whatever. But I've managed to learn pieces of or entire songs over the last few weeks (Come Together, Green Onions, Coming Up, Sunshine of Your Love.) You're right, that's a good break from the repetition of working the scales.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Asher S

+1

The right way to study modes is to understand how they work and how they can un-complicate things sometimes, and not to just write them off as confusing.

For example, if you're reading a chart and up pops a D# diminished chord (eg D# b3 b5 b7), and you can't quite remember which minor scale(s) are diatonic with that, remembering that the VII mode is the chord scale for the dim chord allows you to quickly visualize and tap the E major (Ionian) scale that JTE is emphasizing.

So a little bit of modal knowledge can sometimes save you by reducing complexity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This sounds like math. You think this simplifies things? For a beginner, that is pretty heady stuff.