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  #1  
Old 09-10-2010, 01:18 PM
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Question Methods, stretching and pain

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Howdy. I'm in my mid-40's and started playing the bass about two months ago. I picked up a method book by Hal Leonard. It had me playing the first, second and third frets with my index finger, middle finger and pinky. No real problems with that.

Last week I decided to start working with a teacher. He tossed that method and said that I should use the "CAGED" method. Based on what I saw in this lesson and have gleaned from the forums, each finger plays a separate fret. He said that it would be better for me in the future since it leads to chord formations.

We started with some exercises playing fifths. I hadn't had a problem doing that previously, but with this new way I go from middle finger on 2nd fret on the E to pinky finger on the 4th finger on the A. That's quite the stretch. I could do it for a measure or two before it hurt too much to continue.

His advice was to play through the pain and work on the stretching. I'm not a big fan of pain, but I don't want to be a weenie, either. And, I'm not really sure what to expect.

So, what's your take? Should I grin and bear it, hoping that it'll work itself out or go back to the first method?

And what should I really be expecting these first few months?

Last edited by catyak : 09-10-2010 at 01:53 PM.
  #2  
Old 09-10-2010, 01:45 PM
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One finger per fret works very well, and in fact, you can train your hand to stretch even further to cover 5 frets when needed.

It does take some time to get used to, but it isn't the end of the world. Don't try to pop off and spend an hour under pain - that won't get anywhere. But keep it up, and 5 tolerable minutes will become 6, 7, etc. Eventually you will be able to play for hours in that position.
  #3  
Old 09-10-2010, 01:49 PM
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Don't play through the pain, you will hurt yourself. This is very important: pain means something is wrong. If it's muscle or joint pain, stop as soon as you feel it, and don't repeat whatever caused the pain. To do anything else is to invite disaster.

Using one finger per fret is useful in some situations, but it's not gospel.

If you want to build finger strength by doing exercises, then using one finger per fret is a great way to do it, BUT do it on the higher frets. Two reasons for this:

1. The strings are less tense

2. The frets are closer

This means it's less of a strain on the hand. Stretching your pinky to the 4th fret with your middle finger on the 2nd is a horribly contorted hand shape, and completely unnecessary. Use index/pinky instead.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chebass88
But keep it up, and 5 tolerable minutes will become 6, 7, etc. Eventually you will be able to play for hours in that position.
No no no, you do not want to be playing for hours using the kind of stretch that you described; middle finger 2nd to pinky 4th. It is unnecessary and causes tension which can lead to permanent damage.

Last edited by J-B'ass : 09-10-2010 at 01:53 PM.
  #4  
Old 09-10-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catyak View Post
His advice was to play through the pain and work on the stretching.
If that's the advice he is giving, then mine is... get a new teacher. You should never play through pain.

There has been numerous discussions about the "rights" and "wrongs" of one finger per fret. Truth is there are no rights or wrongs.

Everyone is different. Some people can do OFPF with no problems, on the lower five frets, while it causes lots of problems for others. Personally I only use it above the 5th fret.

As you are new to bass, I'd advise doing your exercises around the 6th or 7th fret. Use OFPF and see how it goes. As your hands gradually get used to this, try moving down the neck a little.

In general, it is not written in stone that you must play OFPF on frets 1-5.


Check out this link :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXkxu_7Tn48
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Last edited by fearceol : 09-10-2010 at 02:54 PM.
  #5  
Old 09-10-2010, 03:03 PM
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Thanks - now that I know what to search on, I'm seeing a lot of posts about this.
  #6  
Old 09-10-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearceol View Post
If that's the advice he is giving, then mine is... get a new teacher. You should never play through pain.

There has been numerous discussions about the "rights" and "wrongs" of one finger per fret. Truth is there are no rights or wrongs.

Everyone is different. Some people can do OFPF with no problems, on the lower five frets, while it causes lots of problems for others. Personally I only use it above the 5th fret.

As you are new to bass, I'd advise doing your exercises around the 6th or 7th fret. Use OFPF and see how it goes. As your hands gradually get used to this, try moving down the neck a little.

In general, it is not written in stone that you must play OFPF on frets 1-5.


Check out this link :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXkxu_7Tn48
+1 Some people's fingers are more flexible than others. I can do OFPF at the 3rd fret without too much effort. 2nd fret is a little awkward, but when I have to do that I start with my middle on the 2nd and then move my hand off and over slightly to reach the 4th with my pinky.
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  #7  
Old 09-10-2010, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catyak View Post
Howdy. I'm in my mid-40's and started playing the bass about two months ago. I picked up a method book by Hal Leonard. It had me playing the first, second and third frets with my index finger, middle finger and pinky. No real problems with that.

Last week I decided to start working with a teacher. He tossed that method and said that I should use the "CAGED" method. Based on what I saw in this lesson and have gleaned from the forums, each finger plays a separate fret. He said that it would be better for me in the future since it leads to chord formations.

We started with some exercises playing fifths. I hadn't had a problem doing that previously, but with this new way I go from middle finger on 2nd fret on the E to pinky finger on the 4th finger on the A. That's quite the stretch. I could do it for a measure or two before it hurt too much to continue.

His advice was to play through the pain and work on the stretching. I'm not a big fan of pain, but I don't want to be a weenie, either. And, I'm not really sure what to expect.

So, what's your take? Should I grin and bear it, hoping that it'll work itself out or go back to the first method?

And what should I really be expecting these first few months?
Go back to the first method, fire your teacher and forget anything your heard about the CAGED system. That was invented by guitar players as a simplified way to learn to strum along with pop music. Unless you are going to restring your bass with a major third between two strings you have no use for such a system. And for the record if you find yourself playing THAT may chords all of the time, you probably have the function of your instrument confused.

I do not advocate one finger per fret. I use double bass fingerings below the fifth fret, I play a 6-string and I rake.
  #8  
Old 09-10-2010, 06:56 PM
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+1

Admittedly, my main instrument is DB these days, but I learned electric first and was taught 1-2-4 fingering on both instruments. I also took cello lessons from 4th grade through high school, which uses 1-2-3-4 with stretches.

All of my teachers emphasized "correct" technique. Of course there are multiple "correct" techniques, but each one involves a fingering system and instruction on how to play gracefully without injury. My teachers watched my left hand while I was playing, and critiqued my technique.

If that instruction is absent, then like onlyclave says, find a qualified teacher, preferably one who has a strong background on the bass.
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  #9  
Old 09-10-2010, 07:11 PM
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Jaco-to present used 4 fingers for three fret coverage at the bottom scale + of the neck, finger independence is the way to counter-act the tension of the span there IME.
  #10  
Old 09-10-2010, 07:41 PM
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Pain is your body's warning system heed it. Stretches should actually feel good. I can OFPF on a long scale 5 but choose not to many times. I also don't really see the point in caged system on bass. Sounds like you are studying with a guitar player, you know, anyone can teach bass. (this is a pet peeve of mine)
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  #11  
Old 09-10-2010, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billnc View Post
Pain is your body's warning system heed it. Stretches should actually feel good. I can OFPF on a long scale 5 but choose not to many times. I also don't really see the point in caged system on bass. Sounds like you are studying with a guitar player, you know, anyone can teach bass. (this is a pet peeve of mine)
+1 it's a large span instrument, 1 finger per fret should never be a religion.
  #12  
Old 09-12-2010, 01:30 PM
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I'm not a real expert, but here is what seems like common sense to me and fits my limited experience: There are different kinds of pain. There is such a thing as soreness from working a muscle that needs to be strengthened, like when you first start going back to the gym. If you're getting a little muscle-sore, I wouldn't worry about it. But when I started trying to play one-finger-per-fret, I got a lot of pain in the back of my hand and wrist that was more joint and tendon strain. I would not play through that -- it could damage your hand and stop you playing forever.
  #13  
Old 09-12-2010, 04:54 PM
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Left hand fingering, thumb and wrist placement are very important to place
correctly to avoid all tenonitis and potential CTS problems. In my 28
years of teaching the bass, none of my former students (some of whom are
legendary pros in their own careers) have suffered CTS and/or tendonitis
and I've never had those problems either. It's vital to place the hand and
use the thumb, wrist and fingers correctly to avoid problems. You should
not hurt at all to play, and this includes jazz soloing.

Unless you have extra-large hands, this technique should work for you:
look at your hand and notice that the thumb is to the side of the index
(1st) finger. As you start to finger the bass, place the thumb sort of in
the middle of the neck, pointing slightly towards the nut, slightly in back
of the fret where the 1st finger is laying (like its placement in your
hand).

And as you play up the neck (up means up in sound, towards the bridges),
your left thumb will naturally fall in back of the 1st finger more and more
so that by the time you're playing on the 9th or 10th fret, the thumb is
maybe 2 frets lower than your index finger. This keeps the balance of the
left hand even and unstressed. If you're playing with your thumb in the
middle of your hand, please change this, this will cause CTS and tendonitis
in your wrist and arm, it's unnatural and strains the hand.

While very large-handed people can sometimes finger the bass like a guitar
(John Clayton was blessed with large hands and could easily and in a
relaxed manner finger 1-2-3-4), most people have just normal to small hands
and should start to finger the bass 1-2-4-4, sometimes assisting the 4th
finger with the 3rd laying on top of it.

The 3rd and 4th fingers share a ligament and as such the 3rd finger is your
weak finger altho' it is a long finger. Your 4th finger has the muscles on
the side of your left hand to support it and the balance of playing the
wide-fretted bass is fine between the 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers most of the
time for rock (jazz is another picture, more on that later).

So practice going chromatically up the neck: O 1 2 4 4 while holding the
thumb in the same position slightly behind the 1st fret, it will pivot to
thrust the final 4th finger up -- Take your fingers with you as a group,
don't let that 1st finger lay down and stay there once you've played a note
with it, take it with the rest of the fingers -- the URB fingering doesn't
work on the elec. bass which has its own fingering and hand position
technique. Play with each finger individually while using the stationary
thumb as your pivot, it is your home base and will thrust the hand up while
keeping your place. Do your chromatic exercise on every string 1-2-4-4-O
of the next string etc.

Now you're winding up on B on the G string. Change the position of your
thumb and put it slightly behind the 2nd fret (where your 1st finger will
land while going down the neck) and finger from B on down 4-2-1-1, going
past your thumb 1 fret, then O, don't move your thumb, then on the D string
same thing: 4-2-1-1-O of A, and so forth. This gets you used to the
slight pivoting action your hand should be doing going down the neck.

There will be times you'll use the 3rd finger in rock, like below the high
Root jumping down a string to the 5th (same fret) and a few other opportune
times like that (playing Root with 1st finger, 5th with 3rd finger and on
to the 10th with the 2nd finger, it all fits) but you want to avoid
(totally) the subsituting of the 3rd finger for the 4th.

No. 1 reason, because you will find your wrist turning sideways to
accomodate the habitual use of the 3rd finger (direct cause of CTS), using
it which is a weak finger, you use other muscles in your hand to do this
that you shouldn't be using), plus your hand and wrist will suffer
consequences of doing this over and over and then your arm and shoulder
will be so involved with pain after awhile of doing this, setting up some
bad physical problems. It's best to use the natural strength of the thumb
with the balance of the strongest fingers of your left hand: 1-2-4.

Now when you're doing your arpeggios and some other kinds of light
fingerings (the individual pressure of each finger is not playing quite as
hard), it's OK to use the 3rd finger, just never in place of the 4th tho'.
I always use the 3rd finger when playing bebop jazz soloing on the bass but
carry the stance (continually) of the 1-2-4 as the total strength of the
hand, using the 3rd finger a lot more than in the heavy playing of
rock/funk patterns and soloing.

Once in awhile (and I stress this ONCE), you can use your fingers stretched
out for a short time (never all the time, this again causes severe physical
problems, tendonitis, etc.) as the fast tempo of some particular tough
pattern dictates it, but never keep your left hand fingers stretched taut
as taught on some videos -- those people have suffered some things they
will never tell you about, and those exercises are WRONG, you should never
suffer any pain or cramping to play -- if you do, you are doing it wrong.

Use your thumb as a pivot, and keep your fingers grouped together (they are
in their most-relaxed state then) as you play and you'll easily play safely
and have stamina and energy all night long then. Minimal warm-up of
pressing each finger against the left thumb for a few seconds before you
play should be sufficient. But there is always a "playing warmup" too,
mentally speaking that you probably will want to do -- the pressing of each
finger is enough tho' to be safe physically with.

Utilizing the thumb pivot (don't move it, and in fact only shift the whole
hand and thumb -- if you can -- at the end of a pattern, or where you have
extra long notes, rests, or take advantage of the open strings to shift
with) to play a pattern like the following one, will give you some good
practice to get used to this technique (reading well has a lot to do with
good fingering techniques too):

In the key of C, play the notes of a C9 chord like this ---- R 5th b7 9th
1st, 4th, 1st, 4th fingers, take your fingers with you when playing the
9th, leaving the thumb in one spot (it will twist a little, that's
pivoting), then the following notes: b7th 7th 8th 1-2-4, play this a
few times to get used to the pivoting. For those of you who don't know
your chordal tones yet, the notes are (going up in sounds): C G Bb high D,
then down to Bb B C.

This should help you. Also, you can play the basic triad R 3 5 with the
fingers 2 1 4 but you'll slightly move back to get the 1st finger -- this
becomes automatic, it's OK to move down past your thumb a little, but you
can move up many many frets while keeping your thumb stationary in a
pivoting stance, you also keep your place very well with this technique
while reading music.

The player who moves his wrist and whole hand and thumb around continually
without using the thumb as a pivot is working too hard, and over-using
their hand, wrist, and arm extensively. There is no need for this. Just
follow the above steps and you'll be fine.

With the extra-large hands, probably fingering 1-2-4-4 also below the 5th
fret would be a good idea. Then use the 1-2-3-4 in rock hard patterns,
this will fit your hand but be sure to use your thumb as a pivot regardless
of the fingerings you use. It will not only save you from any physical
problems but will extend your accurate playing, and subconciously open up
more creativity with this extended way of playing while avoiding needless
physical problems. Any questions, please email me.
Carol Kaye carol@carolkaye.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Added 8/9/06 The Electric Bass seems like a very easy instrument to play and it is for awhile. But...so many just pick up the bass and start playing it with no idea of the technique that they really need in order not to get hurt playing this "big guitar"...first of all, it's not a guitar, even tho' it has a neck with frets on it and sort of a shape like a guitar. The similarity ends there.

The pressure it requires, plus the angle of the hand (dictated by the shape of the bass and long neck, all first designed by Feddy Tavares when he worked for Leo Fender in designing the first Fender Precision bass), plus the weight of the neck that continually has a gravity problem (most of the early necks were neck-heavy, pulling down all the time requiring you to hold them up = extra pressure), this will make someone play it at first with poor technique.

You can get by with bad Left Hand technique if you only play 1-2 hours a week, but for everyone else, you'll slowly start having aches pains and eventually suffer from either a nagging painful condition or worse, some tremendously bad physical problems because of bad playing techniques. Don't do it, you can easily learn not only the safe technique but it's the fastest and most-efficient and easiest technique to learn...do it right and you'll never have problems (unless you stand up and play with a heavy bass, that's another problem - nothing over 6 lbs doctors say but I think 8 lbs is OK).

Thankfully, most basses made lately have a more-balanced, if not perfect, neck so you don't have to expend much energy in holding up the neck.

Most people think, including most of the current teachers out there, that you finger it like a guitar ie.: 1 finger per fret - wrong. Some teachers will erroneously put you through tortuous and wrong finger-stretching exercises which go against the way your left hand is built, causing tremendous crippling problems later on down the road, and this can eventually even require you to have surgery....don't do it. Each finger has its own ligament EXCEPT the 3rd and 4th finger which share a ligament...don't try to stretch those fingers - you'll hurt yourself. You can use them wisely with correct technique and fingering.

First of all, be aware of the 3rd and 4th finger sharing a ligament. Do not finger 1-2-3-4 on frets of the elec. bass. The size of the frets dicate a different fingering - do not put tension in your hand by stretching to play that neck...use fingering this way:

1-2-4-4 your 4th finger is actually stronger than your 3rd because it has the whole side of the hand to support it once you build up strength in all your fingers by pressing them individually against your thumb, the same strength you need to play on the bass neck.

ALL carpal tunnel sufferers are/were people who fingered with their 3rd finger in place of the 4th finger - some to the point that they required wrist surgeries, some never to play again.

Look at your wrist when you finger with the 3rd finger, it turns sideways to accomodate the length of the finger, and that is the problem! Your wrist should remain flat, and not turn sideways in order to play the elec. bass neck.....That causes the carpal tunnel.....only in rare cases (like jumping down from the 4th to 3rd finger underneath on the same fret, root to 5th) can you use the 3rd finger safely.

And of course, when you've gained in lessons and want to play jazz soloing which is very light in touch (no hard blues rock-funk playing there!), you can sometimes use 1-2-3-4, but never teh 3rd finger in place of the 4th (no octaves with 1 and 3, always use your fingers 1 and 4 for octave playing). If you have extra-large hands yes, above the 7th fret you can safely finger 1-2-3-4 which fits the size of your hand....

Fingering and thumb-pivoting techniques are shown in-depth on the Bass DVD Course, the Music Reading DVD as well as also on the Teaching - Playing - Hangin' DVD.....plus you can see pictures of the Left-Hand on pg. 2 of the Playing Tips pages (EDUCATION button) also.

Take your time and really get this technique which works with the body's natural build for safe, fast, and super-efficient ways of playing...you'll never get hurt, and you'll play easily with the utmost speed and no-energy expense with the correct techniques. Just know that people who write books with unsafe terrible fingerings and non-pivots are not experienced teachers, nor have spent much time in the education (let alone top professional live playing) fields.

There are a couple of experienced players who wrote books with wrong fingers because they have extra-large hands and probably think everyone should finger like they don (wrong!).....but one even admitted to me he had "someone write his book for him"....he's got a few books out now, all written by someone else. Don't go along with the majority out there who teach technique wrong...you'll pay for it with suffering and maybe even surgery. I've taught over 5,000 students one-on-one and they've had terrific playing careers, and none ever suffered from technique problems...others can't say that.

Having the right strings helps too...the easy-playing dynamic powerful-sounding Thomastik Jazz Flats feel like silk and play easily for the greatest sounds and greatest response also...be sure to get your Jazz flats at a huge discount (see ACCESSORIES in CATALOG)....you'll have the finest for years of trouble-free playing at the greatest of ease when you have both the correct playing techniques with the strings you love to play on and hear.
  #14  
Old 09-12-2010, 11:29 PM
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IMHO the key mistake the OP's teacher made was to make him start that low on the neck. Learning OFPF should be started halfway the neck.

WannaJazz wrote some very good stuff. Often teachers work from their own experience without realizing that every player has different hands in terms of proportions and dexterity.

A teacher should not impose standard technique, but work from the physical possibilities of the individual student.

I disagree with WannaJazz on the dangers of OFPF because I am confident that OFPF can be done with correct technique without danger to health, at least by healthy people, but learning it requires close monitoring by a teacher who knows about BG related health risks in detail.
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I cannot hear an audible difference.
  #15  
Old 09-13-2010, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris K View Post
IMHO the key mistake the OP's teacher made was to make him start that low on the neck. Learning OFPF should be started halfway the neck.

WannaJazz wrote some very good stuff. Often teachers work from their own experience without realizing that every player has different hands in terms of proportions and dexterity.

A teacher should not impose standard technique, but work from the physical possibilities of the individual student.

I disagree with WannaJazz on the dangers of OFPF because I am confident that OFPF can be done with correct technique without danger to health, at least by healthy people, but learning it requires close monitoring by a teacher who knows about BG related health risks in detail.
+1 Chris. The problem is assessment, how do you assess a players suitability for playing bass? Hand size is one of the considerations to be used, no one has the right to play a bass, it is not for all and even the best intentions in the world still does not give anyone the right to play bass. Life is unfair and the choices you want are not always there for you.

Bass is a physical aptitude and if you have the skills and physique for it you will fair well, if you don't then your are in for a life of trouble and disappointment if your heart is set on being a pro bass player.

I have said it once so i will say it again, no new player should be stretching below the 7th fret, that is a future goal.
We hear a lot about starting new players on chord tone or scales, well this is where scales win hands down(excuse the pun).
Starting all scales on the 12th fret and playing the on finger one fret starting with the middle finger for major and the fore finger for minor is the best way to start any new student off.
Playing the scales on the 12th fret of the A string, then drop to the E string at the 12th fret is a gentle stretch not a hard one. For me the playing of scales starting on the 12th fret is A major, the A minor, drop to the !2th fret E and repeat. Then go to the 10th fret G on the A string, repeat the two scales, then drop to the 10th fret D and repeat, then drop to the 8th fret and repeat the sequence again. The up to the 11th fret on the A string and repeat the sequence again going through the 9th and 7th frets and stop.
That is as far as any new player showed go. Any thing that needs to be learnt below the 7th fret can be learned above it with ease, it is just the pitch that will be different, everything else will be the same. In the coming months as the hands develop then easy lines and scale studies can be introduces below the 7th fret as the teacher or tutor sees fit. If you cannot develop one finger one fret it is not a problem, now one ha ever said that it is an essential skill, it is a desirable one but not essential.
I have the ability to do it but rarely do because i don't have to...i use easier techniques to play the notes depending on:
A/ where i have come from
B/ where i have to go
this for me is the way i use it, i use it because i have no other option, but till then always always take the less stressful and safest option.

With this type of hand development in place first, all that bass has to offer will be easier in the future as a good foundation of physical and theoretical skills are in place. Its about learning to walk before you can run, there is a time in life for everything so don't ruin it before you get there.
  #16  
Old 09-13-2010, 10:22 AM
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The article that I posted was from Carol Kaye. I can't take credit for the opinions that people agree with, and I don't take offense with those who disagree. This is great to see so many varying opinions, it offers readers a much wider and more well rounded viewpoint.
  #17  
Old 09-16-2010, 11:09 PM
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Great post, Fergie.
I hope the OP will move up the neck and stay there for the time being. I am curious though what else his teacher told him to do wrong
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  #18  
Old 09-17-2010, 08:38 AM
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Thanks, everyone. I've canceled lessons with this teacher. The teacher is a guitar teacher at the place that I'm taking my violin lessons, so it'll probably be awkward the first few times that I see him there, but I'd rather start this out right.

I don't know that he taught anything else wrong. There was just the CAGED system. The rest of the stuff was pretty basic - start out at 15 minutes of practice a day, stretch before, stretch after, practice natural scales and walking fifths. We didn't talk about the right hand at all.

I am sticking with the Ed Friedland book. I have to admit that it was fun just jamming along with the teacher. Okay, jamming may be a stretch for playing a simple bass line, but it was great, a lot better than plunking along to a CD, so I'll be looking for a different teacher soon. This time, I'll find someone that plays bass.
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:43 AM
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Good move to cancel that teacher. This can be a problem with guitar teachers who teach bass on the side. Make sure your next teacher's 1st instrument is the bass.

As for jamming, you could always put up a message in a few places to see if there are others who would like to jam.
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  #20  
Old 09-17-2010, 11:21 PM
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Location: Austin, TX
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Many guitarists that teach electric bass make the same mistake. Bottom line - anyone that tells you to "play through the pain" is not going to be much help. Thanks for sticking with my book, later on in Book 2, I introduce the 1-2-3-4 fingering. We need both to play effectively, but you need to be relaxed and avoid straining the hands at all times.
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