Metronome/Drum Machine

[Orangeclawhamme]

I bought three instrucional books from Amazon. I got all three at once to get the free shipping . One of them insisted that a metronome was an absolote must. Another recommended a drum machine. If the drum machine is only going to be used to provide rythms to practice with would this item be adequate?
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Boss-DB-...93-i1125664.gc

If not can any of you recommend another unit that might work as a metronome and drum machine.

The books are BASS GROOVES and BUILDING WALKING BASSLINES. Both are by Ed Friedland.

Thanx in advance.

[Ed Fuqua]

The reason I like to use a metronome rather than a drum machine is that the metronome contributes the absolute minimum of musical input. That means YOU have to contribute the musicality. A drum machine can be programmed to add so much support - rhythmically, defining the beginnings and endings of phrases etc. - that you have a lot of room to skate.

[JeffBerlin]

Metronomes do not work in academic study because they insist that you perform, not learn. If you bought books, then this indicates your wish to musically improve. But nobody can improve if a performance is the goal rather than the gathering of new information.

Teachers who advocate the use of metronomes in music are wrong because they are not including the out-of-time experience that every subject anywhere requires when learning that topic. Even new surfers, who must stand on the board to ride a wave in don't do this at the Pipeline in Hawaii.

Here is a question for you: list anything that you can think of that is best learned IN time! Post this list here! If you can't name even 10 topics that require learning in-time, then learning music should fall into the worldwide list of just about everything that is learned OUT of time. Make your list and post it here. Regards, JB

[DudeistMonk]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

Metronomes do not work in academic study because they insist that you perform, not learn. If you bought books, then this indicates your wish to musically improve. But nobody can improve if a performance is the goal rather than the gathering of new information.

Teachers who advocate the use of metronomes in music are wrong because they are not including the out-of-time experience that every subject anywhere requires when learning that topic. Even new surfers, who must stand on the board to ride a wave in don't do this at the Pipeline in Hawaii.

Here is a question for you: list anything that you can think of that is best learned IN time! Post this list here! If you can't name even 10 topics that require learning in-time, then learning music should fall into the worldwide list of just about everything that is learned OUT of time. Make your list and post it here. Regards, JB

I think I see your point Jeff...

I personally never cared for metronomes, and I can play in time with a drummer/the band. When I try to learn something with a metronome it takes 3X as long as if I where to learn it and then play it with a metronome. I find it much easier to learn the notes playing out of rhythm, pausing to examine a fingering or squint at my sheet music and once I'm comfortable with that work out playing the line fluidly and in time.

I do find drum machines/loops to be very handy for improvisational practice/inspiration though, and they can be the closest thing you have to playing with others before you go out and play with others. Also there are a few exercises that my instructor will throw my way that seem like they would be pretty pointless without a metronome, like shuffling index cards with the various divisions of a quarter note(2 8ths, dotted 8th 16th, 4 16ths...etc.) and playing them in time, increasing the speed each week.

Lastly to the OP if you do decide that you do need a metronome makes sure you get one that allows you to accent the 1. I find these infinitely easier to work with/more like working with a drummer/worth the extra 5 bucks.

[Ed Fuqua]

Working with a metronome is not about "learning music", just as working with ear training methodologies are not about "learning music". You practice against a constant for a reason, that reason has nothing to do with learning parts.

Apropos of a certain line of reasoning mentioned in a few threads, much of the current research on brain function learning and training does show that pathway connections are stronger in the test subjects who had the stressor of time placed on learning tasks that required multiple components (comprehension, remembering order and utilization of motor skills); they both learned to duplicate the tasks in a shorter period of time and retained the knowledge longer than those who had unlimited time to complete the task.

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Working with a metronome is not about "learning music", just as working with ear training methodologies are about "learning music". You practice against a constant for a reason, that reason has nothing to do with learning parts.

Apropos of a certain line of reasoning mentioned in a few threads, much of the current research on brain function learning and training does show that pathway connections are stronger in the test subjects who had the stressor of time placed on learning tasks that required multiple components (comprehension, remembering order and utilization of motor skills); they both learned to duplicate the tasks in a shorter period of time and retained the knowledge longer than those who had unlimited time to complete the task.

One has to know what they are doing before they can duplicate tasks, no? If one isn't learning or representing the music that they wish to play, then what are people doing with a bass in their hands? There is no other reason to play.

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

I think I see your point Jeff...

I personally never cared for metronomes, and I can play in time with a drummer/the band. When I try to learn something with a metronome it takes 3X as long as if I where to learn it and then play it with a metronome. I find it much easier to learn the notes playing out of rhythm, pausing to examine a fingering or squint at my sheet music and once I'm comfortable with that work out playing the line fluidly and in time.

I do find drum machines/loops to be very handy for improvisational practice/inspiration though, and they can be the closest thing you have to playing with others before you go out and play with others. Also there are a few exercises that my instructor will throw my way that seem like they would be pretty pointless without a metronome, like shuffling index cards with the various divisions of a quarter note(2 8ths, dotted 8th 16th, 4 16ths...etc.) and playing them in time, increasing the speed each week.

Lastly to the OP if you do decide that you do need a metronome makes sure you get one that allows you to accent the 1. I find these infinitely easier to work with/more like working with a drummer/worth the extra 5 bucks.

You are correct. It definitely takes longer to learn when a click is happening. The truth is, every rhythm section in history, just about ever well known bass player that ever played never aquired their sense of time from a click. If there is little in regards of a return for pursuing a path of learning, then the path is wrong. A couple of success stories in a group of ten thousand is not an impressive statistic.

Regarding the accenting; yes. Lenny Tristano used a metronome as an ear training device by placing the click on all different parts of the downbeat and the "ands" of an eighth note jazz bar. This is ear training. But some argue that a metronome will help you to improve your sense of time. I don't!

The moment, the instant that a real drummer enters into your musical life, then the click that you have been practicing with is instantly negated. You can't practice to prepare to play with a real drummer by playing with a click because the two experiences are different, totally opposite actually. A drummer breathes with the time, and drum machine doesn's. But, you can jam with a click or a drum machine for the fun of it. My only objection is the false belief that your time will improve if you practice with a metronome. It won't! It will improve when you learn how to play music on your instrument, just like it has with just about everybody in musical history who learned how to play this way.

[DudeistMonk]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Working with a metronome is not about "learning music", just as working with ear training methodologies are not about "learning music". You practice against a constant for a reason, that reason has nothing to do with learning parts.

Apropos of a certain line of reasoning mentioned in a few threads, much of the current research on brain function learning and training does show that pathway connections are stronger in the test subjects who had the stressor of time placed on learning tasks that required multiple components (comprehension, remembering order and utilization of motor skills); they both learned to duplicate the tasks in a shorter period of time and retained the knowledge longer than those who had unlimited time to complete the task.

Yeah but is that 'time stressor' applied in the sense a click track or in the sense of "I need to learn 10 songs for my audition in 2 days." Comparing time constraints and tempo is like comparing apples and oranges.

[Ed Fuqua]

Certainly.
Have a blessed day.

[stratovani]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

You are correct. It definitely takes longer to learn when a click is happening. The truth is, every rhythm section in history, just about ever well known bass player that ever played never aquired their sense of time from a click. If there is little in regards of a return for pursuing a path of learning, then the path is wrong. A couple of success stories in a group of ten thousand is not an impressive statistic.

Regarding the accenting; yes. Lenny Tristano used a metronome as an ear training device by placing the click on all different parts of the downbeat and the "ands" of an eighth note jazz bar. This is ear training, but some argue that a metronome will help you to improve your sense of time. The moment, the instant that a real drummer enters into your musical life, then the click that you have been practicing with is instantly negated. You can't practice playing with a real drummer by playing with a click because the two experiences are different. But, you can jam with a click or a drum machine for the fun of it. My only objection is the false belief that your time will improve if you practice with a metronome. It won't! It will improve when you learn how to play music on your instrument, just like it has with just about everybody in musical history who learned how to play this way.

Thanks, Jeff. I think my personal motto, "I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music" had just been validated. Now, I've got nothing against a metronome; just for fun I use one, set at a real slow click (40bpm), to see if I can play notes to a beat. At that speed, I'm often a bit behind or ahead! I also think that in a band setting, time is everyone's responsibility. If any of The Beatles' sense of time had been even a bit off, their songs simply wouldn't have sounded right! So I think musicians should work to get a sense of time in a group context, and as for myself I like playing to backing tracks or actual songs to get that sense of time. Works for me!

[DudeistMonk]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

You are correct. It definitely takes longer to learn when a click is happening. The truth is, every rhythm section in history, just about ever well known bass player that ever played never aquired their sense of time from a click. If there is little in regards of a return for pursuing a path of learning, then the path is wrong. A couple of success stories in a group of ten thousand is not an impressive statistic.

Regarding the accenting; yes. Lenny Tristano used a metronome as an ear training device by placing the click on all different parts of the downbeat and the "ands" of an eighth note jazz bar. This is ear training. But some argue that a metronome will help you to improve your sense of time. I don't!

The moment, the instant that a real drummer enters into your musical life, then the click that you have been practicing with is instantly negated. You can't practice to prepare to play with a real drummer by playing with a click because the two experiences are different, totally opposite actually. A drummer breathes with the time, and drum machine doesn's. But, you can jam with a click or a drum machine for the fun of it. My only objection is the false belief that your time will improve if you practice with a metronome. It won't! It will improve when you learn how to play music on your instrument, just like it has with just about everybody in musical history who learned how to play this way.

Yeah... A real musician is imperfect and hearing and adjusting to that in order to stay together/keep the song on track as a band is more important than keeping time like a human metronome.

If you're keeping perfect time and nobody is with you then you'll sound off anyway and whats the point?

[Spin Doctor]

As a bass student, I'll give my two cents. On my current teacher's suggestion, I got a Boss JS-5 Jamstation. It's a programmable drum machine that is not made anymore, but you can get them on e-bay. Built like a tank. Anyway, for sound quality and versatility I couldn't find one better. I found that playing with the drum machine helps me lock into the groove. You can definitely set up beats that emphasizes the "1". A metronome can't really do this. Plus it gets you used to the sound of a drum and hi-hat Nobody that I've ever heard of has played a show or concert to a metronome.

So while you may need to work on something "out of time" that doesn't mean you never need to practice it in time. You're the bass player. One half of the rhythm section. You'd better know what it feels like to be in a pocket. The teacher says basically you need to have some rhythm going everytime you pick up your bass. I hate metronomes. They're so dull and lifeless. At least with Danny the Drum Machine it sorta sounds real.

So to the OP, if you like that drum machine in the link, get it. I like the Jamstation. Philosophically speaking, you can't advance with a teacher if you don't trust his instruction. For me, I trust the source of my instruction and just do what he says, pretty much without question, because there is nothing I can teach him about the bass. I've never seen anyone with a stronger command of music theory in my life, and there is literally and absolutely no style he can't play on the bass. I mean Victor Wooten likes him and that's way good enough for me...

[JeffBerlin]

stratovani;8743545 -Thanks, Jeff. I think my personal motto, "I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music" had just been validated. Now, I've got nothing against a metronome; just for fun I use one, set at a real slow click (40bpm), to see if I can play notes to a beat. At that speed, I'm often a bit behind or ahead!

JEFF - Most people are behind or ahead of a metronome, especially when it is set to a slow tempo because it is musically unnatural to be strictly in tempo with a device that isn't "listening" to you. In fact, there is nothing about it that you can use if yo are playing with other guys who haven't learned how to play well and whose sense of time is all over the place because of it.

stratovani;8743545 -I also think that in a band setting, time is everyone's responsibility. If any of The Beatles' sense of time had been even a bit off, their songs simply wouldn't have sounded right! So I think musicians should work to get a sense of time in a group context, and as for myself I like playing to backing tracks or actual songs to get that sense of time. Works for me!

JEFF - One must ask themselves why they wish to play music in the first place. If the idea is to put through an instrument the music that you hear in your head and feel in your heart, then practicing with a metronome isn't going to give you this.

One can only play what they hear when they have learned how to play, period! Included in the learning experience is an out-of-time regard for new material that should be regarded, repeated, learned slowly, but never, ever performed. Players who have bad time are practically universally bad musicians. The answer is to fix the musical deficiency that makes them bad players in the first place. The neat thing is that this can be done with anybody, but they have to be willing to learn music first and formost. But, I have found that most aren't, which is why their difficulty with time probably won't get resolved.

[JeffBerlin]

Spin Doctor;874359 -So while you may need to work on something "out of time" that doesn't mean you never need to practice it in time. You're the bass player. One half of the rhythm section. You'd better know what it feels like to be in a pocket. The teacher says basically you need to have some rhythm going everytime you pick up your bass. I hate metronomes. They're so dull and lifeless. At least with Danny the Drum Machine it sorta sounds real.

Jeff- Playing something that you have learned in time is the goal. But, doing it with a click is a redundancy. You won't play it better this way. Also, time does not mean a clicking box or drum machine. Time is a cadence agreed on and represented. Further, lessons are not meant to be the opposite of dull and lifeless. They are meant to be enlightening. My suggestion is to not look for excitment when you should be practicing new musical elements. Art is full of life. Academia is full of information.

Spin Doctor;874359 - So to the OP, if you like that drum machine in the link, get it. I like the Jamstation. Philosophically speaking, you can't advance with a teacher if you don't trust his instruction. For me, I trust the source of my instruction and just do what he says, pretty much without question, because there is nothing I can teach him about the bass. I've never seen anyone with a stronger command of music theory in my life, and there is literally and absolutely no style he can't play on the bass. I mean Victor Wooten likes him and that's way good enough for me...

JEFF- If you trust the instruction that you are receiving, then this means that you feel confident enough in what you are working on to put your musical future into the hands of this teacher. The kind of player that you will become depends upon the information that this person is showing you, and so you should make sure that you are certain that you are getting quality information for your financial investment.

P.S. If anyone remembers, I asked a little earlier to list things that are best learned in time. Don't forget to make your list and put them here. But I remind people that if they can't think of things that are required to be learned in time, then neither should music be learned this way, if one associates music with the same principles of learning that everything else appears to fall into.

[Orangeclawhamme]

Thank you, Mr. Berlin. I think you saved me a few bucks here. I usually learn a song by figuring out where the notes are (or the easiest way to reach them) then, when I can play them in order, work on getting the timing down.

[JeffBerlin]

Here is my last comment on this thread, and then I am heading back to mine. Thanks for reading and commenting.

I asked a couple of times if people would list anything in life that is best learned in time. Nobody offered up any examples, and with respect, I already knew that nobody would! Why? Becanse practically nothing in life is learned in time! You can't cook an omelette until you've practiced how. You can't swim until you get in the shallow end of the pool. And you certainly cannot learn music on that instrument in time. There is just about nothing whatsoever in life that is best learned in time.

Why does one play an instrument? Two reasons only; 1. to play the music that you feel or hear inside, or, 2. to play the music that somebody else came up with. There is no other reason to play the bass. A metronome will not help you in these regards, but they are fun to jam with. Just know that no improvement in your sense of time will happen, not until you address what good time is and where it actually comes from.

Agree with me, don't agree with me! Just make sure that your willingness to practice with a click is based on more than what you feel about practicing this way, because your musical future rests on what and how you learn how to play. If nothing in life is best learned in time, then music falls into the same organic truth that relates to everything whatsoever in life. Later and thanks for reading!

[jchrisk1]

What Jeff said. And anyone who agrees. And anyone who doesn't agree, well, what Jeff said!

[DanAleks]

A drum machine will give more of the feel of playing with a band.

Try Hammerhead:
http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/

Download page:
http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/download.shtml

Bass drum on 1, snare on 2 and 4, hi-hat playing 8th notes.

[Michael Campbel]

Originally Posted by DanAleks

A drum machine will give more of the feel of playing with a band.

Try Hammerhead:
http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/

Download page:
http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/download.shtml

Bass drum on 1, snare on 2 and 4, hi-hat playing 8th notes.

Never saw that one before; going to go check it out, thanks!

For the OP, without regard to whether or not a 'nome is good, bad, or ugly (since I'm not qualified to give an opinion there) if you simply WANT to play to a drum machine, another (free) option is Hydrogen. Runs on at least Mac, Windows and Linux:

http://www.hydrogen-music.org/

I've used it on both Windows and Ubuntu Linux. The download page lists the windows installer as "experimental" and unstable, but it's worked fine for me.

[swelltrain]

Hello, I have no input on whether you practice with a metronome or not.

I just wanted to address the assertion that nothing in life is learned "in time". Pretty much everything that involves coordinating physical movement is learned "in time" (or with something keeping a set time). You may not practice your physical movements that way, but I guarantee you the ones that take physical movement seriously do.

Football. Consider Brett Favre and a receiver running a timing route. They are able to do it perfectly in game because they have practiced it against something dictating time to them. They probably don't use a metronome, but they have coaches clapping and counting cadences to them. And just like a musician learning a piece, they go through the counts slowly: snap one, step two, pause three, throw four. And they speed up the "metronome" till they are at game speed.

Same thing with competitive diving. They don't jump spin, twirl, flip as fast as they can before they hit water. They get in a harness and have a coach clap/metronome count as they perform their moves slowly at first, then speed up till they get it up to "dive time".

Think of a boxer with a timing bag. The natural return motion of the bag keeps the time and is the metronome.

Swimmers lengthen their stroke and improve their kick rhythms by swimming to a click.

I guess my point is that musicians don't have a lock on timing/rhythm. Musicians are just doing a coordinated physical activity like every other athlete, dancer, etc. And the vast majority of them learn new ways of moving by setting it against a click/metronome/pacer.

For sure someone learning to cook an omelete doesn't use a metronome. But a gymnast working out a tumble routine-- absolutely.