Metronome and inner rythem discussion

[Mr wiggl3s]

I'm just going to give yall a quick rundown.

Random guy A: The Tapping Feet are a false god. Only the metronome is real.

Me: If you rely on a metronome to much you may not develop a sense of beat. Everyone should be able to keep rhythm themselves, and not rely on other band members.

Random guy B:This is extremely false. How would relying on a metronome not help you develop a sense of beat? Is that not what a metronome does, keep time?

When you go into a studio situation, a good 95%+ of the time you're going to play to a metronome. If you can't hack it, you shouldn't be in the studio

The same thing goes for live performance, especially if you have backing tracks that are at certain tempos. If you're playing with a backing track of a synth part, and you start speeding up or slowing down, you shouldn't be there.

Metronomes help develop a steady rhythm, which is especially useful when you start going into time signatures other than 4/4. Try playing a 7/8 rhythm part simply by tapping your foot, or going along with "your inner rhythm." You'll be lost.

Me:If you're playing with a metronome every ****ing second, or you're playing with a back track, how the **** are you developing rhythm? Answer me that. You're not. You're RELYING (SEE BELOW I WILL INCLUDE A DEFINITION FOR YOU) on others to keep rhythm for you, which is wrong. I'm not going to get into why it's wrong because clearly, nobody HERE thinks its wrong.

So, am i wrong here? I've gotten this type of response before, i can't be the only one (if i'm not). Anyone else? What do you say, or, what should i learn?

[KimblesNimble]

As a bass player, having an internal clock is crucial, in the absence of a drummer, you are the metronome. But practicing with a metro (I think) is a must when going over scales / building speed.

racticing (alone) is more fun with a drum machine and gives you a better dynamic feel that a metro alone. Ive been in many situations sans drummer, and the bass really has to hold it together, foot tapping and all

[Fergie Fulton]

Good question and it is the use of the metronome that can be the problem, not the metronome. A metronome was a reference, and now because of the digital age it has become a tool to be used.

Internal clocks can be affect and influenced, metronomes can't (my definition of a metronome click, drum machine, beatbox etc.)
So if we can be influenced, we cannot be trusted, but we can be callibrated.

There are six musician all feeling it different, then who is correct?

Just because five of the six end up agreeing it does not make them correct, it makes them in agreement with each other. The feeling can be projected on to one, then another, then a collective feeling takes over...rightly or wrongly just because one does not get it does not mean the one is wrong in the true sense of what is being played. A metronome will show what is correct.

Playing with a click is a skill many believe they cannot do, where as i find it is just they do not understand what is involved. By its very nature it is un-relenting, dependable, repeatable, and all ways there. Use those qualities it has with your own. You can pay on, behind, or ahead at any time you want, it will not change, it will always be there when you come back.

Do we guess the time or look at a watch?
So long as we can work with in the time frame being played by the majority we have time, regardless of who is right or wrong to the metronome, that metronome is a reference not the time.

A click is the reference and the time, there is no comprimise only the player can be wrong not the click.

Relying on others...no, depending on others maybe, but i am expecting others to feel what is going on, the same as they expect me to feel whats going on.
With a metronome i expect the beat to be where it is set, no where else so i feel for that and expect that..

[slybass3000]

A metronome is a tool , a very good tool actually. Just like practicing solfege you need a tuned instrument to verify and relate to the pitches. Same with a metronome ,you use it to verify your playing against something steady.
I do believe that practicing the right way with a metronome or drum machine can help you working on your inner clock. There are tons of ways to work with a metronome and don't forget to listen to it when practicing with it. Too many people don't !

Sly

[Nashrakh]

I'm just butting in to say

Try playing a 7/8 rhythm part simply by tapping your foot, or going along with "your inner rhythm." You'll be lost.

is a totally false statement. If you know how odd time signatures can be subdivided, you can play in odd time all day.

my 2 cents

[Billnc]

If you can clap your hands in time the issue is coordination on the instrument not time. The metronome will not help with complex rythms, clap or count them slowly and build up speed. It is only a reference. ta ka dimi ta ka da doesn't require a metronome.

[fourfinger]

At an advanced level, a metronome can be used on beats OTHER THAN the One. Example: the AND (upbeat) of FOUR. If you can consistently groove to a metronome that is only striking on the AND of FOUR, you have developed (to some degree) your sense of time.

I saw this trick demonstrated by Victor Wooten. It makes practicing to the metronome not only more interesting but also more effective.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Billnc

If you can clap your hands in time the issue is coordination on the instrument not time. The metronome will not help with complex rythms, clap or count them slowly and build up speed. It is only a reference. ta ka dimi ta ka da doesn't require a metronome.

Surely it is the reference to 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 that allows all time-sigs?
Is it not the breaking down of time in between 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 that helps creates them?
If there is a beat, an accent, a note, a reference point that appears in a time sig. then a metronome can reproduce it and give you a reference. This i would say is true of all time sigs.

The fact some people use glasses to read, but not for anything else, and some wear glasses all the time, some for driving etc. is similar to the metronome, those who don't need one cannot see the fuss. One should not compare there own abilities with others and conclude it as fact.

Because we have developed internalised time in all we do and don't realise it, does not mean we do not have it. The very fact we are disscussing it shows the different amount of levels we each have developed.

On an instrument we take feeling and make it physical, so there are many ways to interupte that process from the start.
Simplest is hearing, cut out the hearing and the timing will go as there is no reference to what is around you.

At its basic that idea can be shown by putting headphones on someone and listen to them shout as they have no reference to the room.
a/ Play music to them, remove the music for a while, but let them continue to play, then bring in the music again and see if the two are in sync.
b/Repeat (a) again and give them a visual reference only and they will do the task better each time as they learn to understand use the reference. They will get back on track as if they could hear it all.
c/ repeat (a) now give a physical reference, like vibration, again as they learn to reference it they will get back on time.

As i stated earlier, your time can be influenced, but the time we measure against can't.... or can it.
Here in the UK we move our clocks rather than move our lives for British Summer Time, BST, one hour ahead of Greenwich Mean Time, GMT, and then move it back in the winter.
This causes up-set in body clocks until we internalise it against the new time. Sleep patterns, hunger, etc all need to be adjusted to suit.

So if we really want to understand what is going on with our own time, then a metronome is the best way to calabrate it as it measures time.

[Billnc]

There is a difference between time and rythm.

[Toronto Bassist]

If you're incapable of playing along with a metronome, then your time needs work.

If you're incapable of playing without a metronome, then your time also needs work.

[BBMS]

Originally Posted by Nashrakh

I'm just butting in to say



is a totally false statement. If you know how odd time signatures can be subdivided, you can play in odd time all day.

my 2 cents

I agree. Once one can "feel" the odd pattern (1..2..123), then it becomes "natural".

[Rob420]

Originally Posted by Toronto Bassist

If you're incapable of playing along with a metronome, then your time needs work.

If you're incapable of playing without a metronome, then your time also needs work.

+1

[Billnc]

[quote=fourfinger;8370611]At an advanced level, a metronome can be used on beats OTHER THAN the One. Example: the AND (upbeat) of FOUR. If you can consistently groove to a metronome that is only striking on the AND of FOUR, you have developed (to some degree) your sense of time.

[quote]

But one two three and four are still going on without change! I've done these and wondered what I've accomplished. Once you've counted and four with a metronome click, job done. It seems once you can do it you've mastered a parlor trick. I'm not saying it might not be without merit but I wonder myself.

[Fergie Fulton]

But one two three and four are still going on without change! I've done these and wondered what I've accomplished. Once you've counted and four with a metronome click, job done. It seems once you can do it you've mastered a parlor trick. I'm not saying it might not be without merit but I wonder myself.

The point is when the song or music is finished... it's job done.
The point of keeping time is keeping time. Once you have mastered that you can move on to other time sigs such as additive rhythms, or hold your own in a polyrhythm to see how well you have "mastered a parlour trick".

For me it is the induvidual to work out how he works and adapt it to the time sig or rhythm they are working in. In a working principal if i know where my 1 is in relation to the 1 in the music that i am playing, i can work out where i need to be regardless of where others may feel one.

In a simple example using a twelve bar slow blues, in a 1-4-1-5 which is 12 bars of 4, the first change to the 4 is at bar 5, then back to the 1 at bar 7 then to the 5 at bar 9, then the 4 at bar 10 and back to the 1 and the turnaround at bar 11 and 12 and repeat.

Or the same thing in six bars of eight, the first change to the 4 is on bar 3, back to the 1 for bar 4, then to the 5 on bar 5( 4 beats only) then to the 4 staying on bar 5(to complete the remaing 4 beats) and back to the 1 and turnaround on bar 6 and repeat.

Either one is a viable way to count and play the 12 bar.... so long as you are aware where the 1 is in relation to the song.

[azureblue]

and you can groove to a metronome, drum track or your foot. Simply put, if you have no feel you your playing, you might as well sequence out your bass parts. And anybody who wants to argue which is better, a metronome or the foot, already has admitted they have no feel for what they are playing.

Do this -get up and walk at a steady pace. Next, turn on a metronome and walk with it. Now clap your hands with your feet. with the clicker going, until you can clap exactly when your foot hits the ground. Hard to be spot on, isn't it? You are rushing, aren't you? Once you get it down tight, then do it with 6/8, then, when you get good at that, then clap out funk patterns with your hands while walking. That will teach you how to internalize the groove.

[M0ses]

Originally Posted by Toronto Bassist

If you're incapable of playing along with a metronome, then your time needs work.

If you're incapable of playing without a metronome, then your time also needs work.

+1

Yeah people can be a bit narrow minded when it comes to metronomes. They can end up being a crutch.

To give an example, I played with a drummer who is very much my senior in age just the other day at a gig, and he couldn't hold a consistent tempo. Despite the fact that he worked 8 hours a day in studios as a session drummer for more than 10 years, playing to clicks. And at this gig he was speeding and slowing down by close to 20bpm eitherway. Either he was lying about his experience or the click did little to develop his internal awareness of timekeeping. Or he's just lazy, I forgot that possibility..

I think it's very important to be able to keep time without any external help at all. Even in the face of distraction and confusion if possible.

[Stumbo]

How long is a quarter note if you don't have a metronome?

[Nashrakh]

As long as you want it to be, as long as all quarter notes are the same length (in case you play without tempo or time sig changes).

That's called tempo I guess. The shorter your quarter note, the faster the tempo?

[Ziltoid]

Why did you had to be rude?