Miles Davis' "So What" Help Request

[Mikhail]

I'm having a hard time understanding what's happening in this tune. I've read that it's a D Dorian Mode composition, evidently in C as my Real Book transcribes it. The piano chords in the intro are G & F with 9ths in the bass, as I'm sure you know. Should I be thinking of D Dorian as the key of C to account for the changes? I want to set up a jam track to work on some introductory jazz playing, and "So What" allows for extended "noodling" to help me get acquainted with playing changes. Also, how would you suggest setting up the solo sections, working the D Dorian for the bass, then Eb, and back to D? I'd really appreciate any help or advice.

[fretlessman71]

I'm no expert, but my understanding of the whole "modal" period of jazz was partially to learn to accept the modes THEMSELVES as keys. So on one hand, the D Dorian is "relative" to C Major; on the other hand, it's really D-7 Dorian, and your "noodling" needs to reflect that. So stay away from the Bb; it'll throw the sound of the song off (unless you know just how you want to use it).

Same goes for Eb-7 - everything, EVERYTHING, moves up a 1/2 step. Dorian mode, relative major, melody, EVERYTHING. And other than the fact that they're the same mode and chord 1/2 step apart, the chords have nothing to do with each other at all. It's an exercise in what an old teacher used to call a "side-step" - take the same chord and move it away by 1/2 step (sometimes a whole step), and then move it back. The chord you moved to provides the tension, and the old chord provides the resolution when you come back to it.

Note: This song won't really help you get used to playing "changes", as there are a whopping 2 chord changes in this 32-bar pattern. It WILL get you used to the Dorian sound.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Mikhail

I'm having a hard time understanding what's happening in this tune. I've read that it's a D Dorian Mode composition, evidently in C as my Real Book transcribes it. The piano chords in the intro are G & F with 9ths in the bass, as I'm sure you know. Should I be thinking of D Dorian as the key of C to account for the changes? I want to set up a jam track to work on some introductory jazz playing, and "So What" allows for extended "noodling" to help me get acquainted with playing changes. Also, how would you suggest setting up the solo sections, working the D Dorian for the bass, then Eb, and back to D? I'd really appreciate any help or advice.

IMO, you should NOT think of this as in C in any way. That's the trap that sometimes bites you in the "modes of the major scale" approach--you can get hung up in having to relate every mode back to its supposed parent major scale. Forget about C. Think of it as D dorian, Eb dorian, D Dorian. This is a classic case where the modes define the tonality, or rather modality. To try to reference it back to C is counterproductive. It would actually impair your understanding of what's going on rather than enhance it. There is no meaningful sense in which So What can be said to be in the key of C, IMO.

[ZonGuy]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

IMO, you should NOT think of this as in C in any way. That's the trap that sometimes bites you in the "modes of the major scale" approach--you can get hung up in having to relate every mode back to its supposed parent major scale. Forget about C. Think of it as D dorian, Eb dorian, D Dorian. This is a classic case where the modes define the tonality, or rather modality. To try to reference it back to C is counterproductive. It would actually impair your understanding of what's going on rather than enhance it. There is no meaningful sense in which So What can be said to be in the key of C, IMO.

+1

[fretlessman71]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

There is no meaningful sense in which So What can be said to be in the key of C, IMO.

Right. D Dorian and C Major share a key SIGNATURE, and D Dorian's "relative major" is C, which helps in understanding the theory but does little if any good in presenting the song in performance.

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by Mikhail

The piano chords in the intro are G & F with 9ths in the bass, as I'm sure you know.

Or E-7 and D-7, with the root in the left hand. He's actually got the 11th in there to.

[baddarryl]

The Feb 2009 of Bass Player has the transcript in it.

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

IMO, you should NOT think of this as in C in any way. That's the trap that sometimes bites you in the "modes of the major scale" approach--you can get hung up in having to relate every mode back to its supposed parent major scale. Forget about C. Think of it as D dorian, Eb dorian, D Dorian. This is a classic case where the modes define the tonality, or rather modality. To try to reference it back to C is counterproductive. It would actually impair your understanding of what's going on rather than enhance it. There is no meaningful sense in which So What can be said to be in the key of C, IMO.

+10

This isn't just exclusive to modal jazz, this applies to any genre of music that uses a mode as it's key centre. Higher Ground by the RHCP (Stevie Wonder played the song a half step lower) is in E dorian, NOT D major, or ionian, to use but one example.

Like Richard said above, thinking of it as it's relative major instead of the mode it's in is counterproductive. What's the point in referencing a song back to C major when it's root is in D dorian? There'll be the tendency to resolve to C, or a chord tone of a C chord and this isn't going to work nearly as well as resolving to Dm7.

[M.Wrenn]

just think of it as a D Dorian, dont go to C...as for setting up the jam track for introductory jazz playing i dont know if i would suggest using So What as your jam track, do something with more chord changes, the reason all of Kind of Blue, and So What in particular, was so revolutionary was because it was so different from the rest of the music being made, it was very unstructured and free, it was essentially the first jam band record, which is why it might be good for improvising in the long run but you'd probably benefit more from going through all the old standards and learing to play/solo over those, otherwise youll be learning something outside the norm which is great but not recommended for introductory playing

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

IMO, you should NOT think of this as in C in any way. That's the trap that sometimes bites you in the "modes of the major scale" approach--you can get hung up in having to relate every mode back to its supposed parent major scale. Forget about C. Think of it as D dorian, Eb dorian, D Dorian. This is a classic case where the modes define the tonality, or rather modality. To try to reference it back to C is counterproductive. It would actually impair your understanding of what's going on rather than enhance it. There is no meaningful sense in which So What can be said to be in the key of C, IMO.

+1

That's how I play it.

Another thought: I don't stress overmuch about how I'm walking a part like this - I can feel that it's more or less dorian, but I have no problem with passing tones or missing a dom note no the 1 - - remember, this is *miles*, so it's all about being a bit outside (but not too far!). I try to think more of *feel* with this piece, not the notes. So What, like every tune on Kind of Blue, is a masterpiece of feel. Every time I hear it, every time I've played it, I am stunned by it and pity the kids who have yet to discover jazz.

[JTE]

As much as I find modal teaching to be unnecassarily confusing and pretty pointless when it comes to playing changes, here's where modal thinking is exactly the point. But the thinking that relates D dorian to C major that causes all the confusion. That's like thinking of C major and Amin as the same. Sure, they've got the same seven notes, and when you harmonize them they get the same seven chords.

So if you're learning modes, learn how Dorian SOUNDS. Dig it's minor tonality and how it works. Don't think of C, but keep coming back the D.

That Bass Player transcription of it a few months ago was so much more than a transcription. It was an in-depth analysis of how it works and what's going on in it. Find it and use it to learn this one!

jte

[Audiophage]

It's in D Dorian, but also D-7. This means that while you can get by playing the notes of the mode, you can also do various chromatic approaches to and from the chord tones. You can learn a lot about modal playing by transcribing what those cats are playing on Kind of Blue.

[JTE]

Get a copy of the most recent issue of Bass Player Magzine- it's got a lenghty article on Paul Chambers and the whole "Kinda Blue" sessions.

jte

[Mikhail]

... the heads up on the February 2009 Bass Player feature; I really appreciate the help.

[fender_funk_man]

The toughest part of "So What" in my mind is counting the damn thing out. I cant remember off the top of my head at the moment but There is something like 16 Bars of D, 8 of Eb and another 8 of D. Nothing sounds worse in this tune then having half the band on one chord and the other half on the other.

[Throckmorten]

FYI: There is a partial transcription here

http://www.jazzeducationdatabase.com...bass&Itemid=54

[Febs]

Originally Posted by fender_funk_man

The toughest part of "So What" in my mind is counting the damn thing out. I cant remember off the top of my head at the moment but There is something like 16 Bars of D, 8 of Eb and another 8 of D. Nothing sounds worse in this tune then having half the band on one chord and the other half on the other.

I find that it is better to think of tune as A-A-B-A, with each A and B section being 8 bars. At the end of the final A section, recognize that you have played the form and are starting the form over. I find that easier than getting to the end of the B section and thinking "now I have to play 24 bars of D minor before I'm at the Eb minor chord again."

[Chebass88]

Originally Posted by Febs

... getting to the end of the B section and thinking "now I have to play 24 bars of D minor before I'm at the Eb minor chord again."

I really like playing the head of this tune, but I dread walking under solos for it. It always does end up being 24 bars of Dm7. I just make sure I am locked on with the rest of the band, and whenever they switch, so do I. I need to learn to count in my head better. Same issue with "Impressions".

ian

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Chebass88

It always does end up being 24 bars of Dm7.

This is what I was getting at. Try not to think of it as 24 bars of Dm7. Think of it as 8 bars of Dm7, and then you're back to the top of the form.

[Mushroo]

At the risk of repeating what others have said
1. So What is not in the key of C
2. The chords are not G and F with the 9th in the bass
3. Only way to learn this tune correctly is to listen and study how they did it