Minor chord modes?

[dvh]

OK, here I sit again, having confused myself into another corner with scale theory.

I think I understand modal theory in simple terms, the second degree is Dorian, third, Phrygian, etc.
I also undertand the notes in those as they relate to the major chord being played.

What I'm confused about now is what if the chord is not a natural major? What if it's a 7th or a minor. What happens to the modes then?

Practicing tonight I found that the D Phrygian scale (D Eb F G A Bb C D) will play over a Cm7 chord.

However, the Phrygian mode of the key of C would normally start on E.

D Phrygian is the 3rd mode of Bb major.

Why is D Phyrgian the second mode of Cm7 and the third mode of Bb major?

Or have I got this totally wrong?

[Mark Wilson]

Originally Posted by dvh

OK, here I sit again, having confused myself into another corner with scale theory.

I think I understand modal theory in simple terms, the second degree is Dorian, third, Phrygian, etc.
I also undertand the notes in those as they relate to the major chord being played.

What I'm confused about now is what if the chord is not a natural major? What if it's a 7th or a minor. What happens to the modes then?

Practicing tonight I found that the D Phrygian scale (D Eb F G A Bb C D) will play over a Cm7 chord.

However, the Phrygian mode of the key of C would normally start on E.

D Phrygian is the 3rd mode of Bb major.

Why is D Phyrgian the second mode of Cm7 and the third mode of Bb major?

Or have I got this totally wrong?

You're confusing yourself way too much.
Over a Cm7, you can theoretically use Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian and Locrian. Mainly because they're all minor, and the 6th degree isn't emphasized.

Music, as i've found out, is all about where you're going. Not about where you are.

I really can't elaborate much on what you're talking about. It works because it works. D Phrygian contains a C, Eb, G, and Bb. THAT'S why it works.

[DocBop]

Real basic answer...
One piece of paper write out the notes of a C Major scale.
under that the numbers if each note in the scale.
Next the chords from the harmonized major scale.
Last the modes of the major scale.

C        D        E          F         G              A         B
1        2         3          4        5               6         7
CMa7   Dmi7   Emi7     FMa7   G7             Ami7    Bmi7-5
Ionian  Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian

Notice the minor chords and the modes associated with them. They are your possible choices. Now if the song is in minor then Aeolian would be your I chord so change your numbers, but leave the modes relating to the chords alone.

There is way more to this topic, but that will get you started. The key is trying the different minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian) against a minor chord and listen to the different sound of each mode. Record a Cmi7 chord then try playing C Aeolian that is your natural minor scale. Try C Dorian against the C mi7 chord. Listen the the natural 6 that is the Santana/Jazzy sound. Try C Phrygian with a Cmi7 people say it has a Spanish sound.

Later on do the same with major chords and modes, dominant, and half-diminished. The key is trying them and listening deciding for yourself what they sound like.

[dvh]

Thanks, this is helpful.

[bburk]

Originally Posted by dvh

Practicing tonight I found that the D Phrygian scale (D Eb F G A Bb C D) will play over a Cm7 chord.

However, the Phrygian mode of the key of C would normally start on E.

D Phrygian is the 3rd mode of Bb major.

Why is D Phyrgian the second mode of Cm7 and the third mode of Bb major?

Mark touched on this, but I'll try expand. The key idea you are missing here is that a chord does not imply a key. Or, perhaps more correctly, a single chord can imply a set of possible keys.

Using Doc's example in Cmaj, you can see there are 3 modes that produce a minor chord (ii, iii and vi). These would produce the chords Dmin, Emin and Amin.

So, to identify what key your Cmin chord is in you would need more information. Maybe some other chords would help you deduce what key is implied.

What you have done with a D phrygian scale is to imply a key of BbMaj. Now if you lay out the chords in BbMaj you will see that you get a Cmin on the Dorian mode. Therefore, as Mark pointed out, that D Phrygian sounds like it fits because it contains the same notes as your chord.

You could play D Phrygian over a EbMaj, or an F7 or any other chord in the key of Bb can get similar results.

There is much more to this, and as with most music theory, rules are made to be broken. But, that's the classical idea of the relationships between keys and chords.

Still, what sounds good, sounds good whether it fits into the classical mold or not. So try not to get too hung up on the 'rules' and listen to your ears.

Hope that helps.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by DocBop

C        D        E          F         G              A         B
1        2         3          4        5               6         7
CMa7   Dmi7   Emi7     FMa7   G7             Ami7    Bmi7-5
Ionian  Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian

Slight formatting fix for ya...

  C       D        E        F        G           A        B
  1       2        3        4        5           6        7
 CMa7    Dmi7     Emi7     FMa7      G7         Ami7    Bmi7-5
Ionian  Dorian  Phrygian  Lydian  Mixolydian  Aeolian  Locrian

[dvh]

Originally Posted by bburk

Mark touched on this, but I'll try expand. The key idea you are missing here is that a chord does not imply a key. Or, perhaps more correctly, a single chord can imply a set of possible keys.

Using Doc's example in Cmaj, you can see there are 3 modes that produce a minor chord (ii, iii and vi). These would produce the chords Dmin, Emin and Amin.

So, to identify what key your Cmin chord is in you would need more information. Maybe some other chords would help you deduce what key is implied.

What you have done with a D phrygian scale is to imply a key of BbMaj. Now if you lay out the chords in BbMaj you will see that you get a Cmin on the Dorian mode. Therefore, as Mark pointed out, that D Phrygian sounds like it fits because it contains the same notes as your chord.

You could play D Phrygian over a EbMaj, or an F7 or any other chord in the key of Bb can get similar results.

There is much more to this, and as with most music theory, rules are made to be broken. But, that's the classical idea of the relationships between keys and chords.

Still, what sounds good, sounds good whether it fits into the classical mold or not. So try not to get too hung up on the 'rules' and listen to your ears.

Hope that helps.

This explains it best, thank you. I'm not so much hung up on rules as I am trying to establish connections in my brain to be able to apply this stuff... or try to!