Modal Soloing/Blanket Modes

[jb63]

I read through the stickies and found some info that might answer my question, but I'm still not entirely sure, hence this post.

First, a quick background on my theory knowledge: I know how to play scales, Maj, min, dom7, dim, etc. I understand how chords are constructed, how chord progressions are sometimes very predictable (the "ii chord" is almost always a minor), and how to improvise supportive bass lines by following a given chord progression such as 1-4-5, or, 1-6-2-5, etc. In fact, my approach to bass playing has always been progression based. However, when I get the nod to take a solo, I default to playing a mix of chord outlines, and pentatonic scales that usually end up sounding craptastic.

One night, when listening a bass player friend of mine take a solo over the Am7 bridge/vamp in Whats Going On by Marvin Gaye, I asked him what mode he was using, he said; "Well, it's not really a mode, I'm just playing a G major scale". I fiddled around with the idea, but it still didn't sound right to me, though some of the notes stuck in my head and I eventually figured out that he was using G Locrian. A couple hours later I found that moving to E Locrian works beautifully (to my ears) over the rest of the song.

Hopefully most of you know the song but here's the basic progression:

Verse: ||: Emaj7, Emaj7, C#m7, C#m7 :||
F#m7, F#m7, B, B
Pre: ||: F#m7, B, F#m7, B :||
Chorus: Emaj7, C#m7, Emaj7, C#m7
Bridge/Vamp: Am7

E Locrian Mode for the Ver, Pre, & Chorus.
G Locrian for the Bridge

Is this correct? Can anyone elaborate? I feel I finally have my foot in the doorway to melodic soloing.
Apologies in advance for any inaccuracies in the descriptions contained in this post. Thanks Jb

[MalcolmAmos]

I think what you have stumbled on is parallel modes.

Three major modes, three minor modes and one diminished mode. The three major modes have the major scale as their home base and the three minor modes plus the diminished mode have the natural minor scale as their home base. So.......

If you want the Lydian feel - major day-dreamy - take the major scale and sharp the 4th. If you want a major Latin mood take the major scale and flat the 7th. That gives you Mixolydian.

Want an attractive minor jazz mood, take the natural minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. That gives you Dorian. Phrygian gives a minor exotic Spanish mood, yes flat the 2, and for the dark and tense mood of Locrian flat the 2 and the 5.

Now the rest of the story --- for the mood of the mode to sustain you have to have the chords necessary stick around long enough to let the mood develop. A chord progression will call attention to the V7-I tonal center, and this may have nothing to do with the mood you are looking for. So modal vamps enter the picture. Good modal vamp could be the Tonic chord plus a chord that has the characteristic note, i.e. #4 for Lydian, b7 for Mixolydian, natural 6 for Dorian. Just two chords.

As Ionian is the Major scale, kinda hard to make Ionian into something it is not - the major scale. So just call it major scale and use your normal chord progression you would use with any major scale. Now the others are going to work best with a modal vamp.

I find this method much easier to incorporate into my playing. Just remember you may need a vamp to pull it off.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by jb63

One night, when listening a bass player friend of mine take a solo over the Am7 bridge/vamp in Whats Going On by Marvin Gaye, I asked him what mode he was using, he said; "Well, it's not really a mode, I'm just playing a G major scale". I fiddled around with the idea, but it still didn't sound right to me, though some of the notes stuck in my head and I eventually figured out that he was using G Locrian.

G Locrian would be G Ab Bb C Db Eb F G

What you're describing is an A Dorian: A B C D E F# G

[jb63]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I think what you have stumbled on is parallel modes.

Three major modes, three minor modes and one diminished mode. The three major modes have the major scale as their home base and the three minor modes plus the diminished mode have the natural minor scale as their home base. So.......

If you want the Lydian feel - major day-dreamy - take the major scale and sharp the 4th. If you want a major Latin mood take the major scale and flat the 7th. That gives you Mixolydian.

Want an attractive minor jazz mood, take the natural minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. That gives you Dorian. Phrygian gives a minor exotic Spanish mood, yes flat the 2, and for the dark and tense mood of Locrian flat the 2 and the 5.

I find this method much easier to incorporate into my playing.

Much easier to use

Oh boy! That's going to give me lot's to experiment with! I think I'm going to have to record some progressions to play along with so I can more easily hear how those ideas sound against a given progression.

What you're describing is an A Dorian: A B C D E F# G

I thought a G Locrian started on F#. I must have a backwards understanding of the terminology. I got thrown off because of my friend describing it as a G scale and I was starting off a particular lick on F#. I take it Dorian is a more common jazz style motif that one would play over a minor chord?

[Febs]

Originally Posted by jb63

I thought a G Locrian started on F#. I must have a backwards understanding of the terminology.

You do have it backwards. G Locrian starts on G.

I got thrown off because of my friend describing it as a G scale and I was starting off a particular lick on F#.

If you play the notes of a G Major scale from F# to F#, that would be an F# Locrian.

However, in this case, since you're playing over an A minor chord, it makes little sense to think of it as F# Locrian or as a G Ionian (G Major). Better to think of the A Dorian as a scale in its own right, and not as a scale that is a G scale starting on another note.

[shwashwa]

E major will work for the verse, chorus and pre, definately not E locrian. Eb locrian, however, will work fine provided you make nice melodies with it. but i wouldnt think of it that way anyway. any of the modes of the E major scale will fit there, id approach it with that color while taking into account each chord as it comes and referring to it as well.

[jb63]

If you play the notes of a G Major scale from F# to F#, that would be an F# Locrian.

However, in this case, since you're playing over an A minor chord, it makes little sense to think of it as F# Locrian or as a G Ionian (G Major). Better to think of the A Dorian as a scale in its own right, and not as a scale that is a G scale starting on another note.

Okay, Got it. So I've made the same mistake in calling the the mode in the other section of the song an E Locrian as well. Would that then be an ordinary E Ionian?

[jb63]

It's still a bit confusing since since the modes overlap each other and cycle around. The most important part is that I'm finally connecting the theory, and the patterns with what I hear in my head.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by jb63

Okay, Got it. So I've made the same mistake in calling the the mode in the other section of the song an E Locrian as well. Would that then be an ordinary E Ionian?

Yes.

[jb63]

Thanks for the assistance folks!

[mambo4]

Just as you have learned that chord tones and arpeggios alone are not enough, You probably also realize that there's no magic modal solution to playing a melodic solo, either.

In jazz, you generally solo based on the lead melody. Can you play Marvin's vocal line?
Ed Fuqua wrote a wonderful sticky thread in the double bass forum about really learning a tune
It goes in depth about learning a tune for the sake of improvising in a jazz context.
It's a very elaborate and detailed process, but if you follow through,
you'll likely play circles around someone who relies on modal magic bullets.

[jb63]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Just as you have learned that chord tones and arpeggios alone are not enough, You probably also realize that there's no magic modal solution to playing a melodic solo, either.

In jazz, you generally solo based on the lead melody. Can you play Marvin's vocal line?
Ed Fuqua wrote a wonderful sticky thread in the double bass forum about really learning a tune

It goes in depth about learning a tune for the sake of improvising in a jazz context.
It's a very elaborate and detailed process, but if you follow through,
you'll likely play circles around someone who relies on modal magic bullets.

Thanks Mambo, I've used that concept a few times when writing solo parts for songs.

After pondering my OP, I realized what I was trying figure out was merely a scale. After practicing it for awhile I'm getting way from that disjointed chord based soloing to a much more fluid scalar approach which was my original intention.

Thanks again for the insight, you all are great!

[eddododo]

try it this way

listen to (any) song.. either just play the record or ask your band to play a few without you, and just HUM or sing or whistle a solo. Identify what YOU WANT to hear, rather than approach it as a physical/pattern/just-make-the-changes puzzle.

Dont be shy to yourself, reallllly sing what you want to hear, then try to find some of the notes or melodies after. I HIGHLY recommend singing WHILE you solo.. cause then youre trying to make yourself play MUSIC on the bass, rather than trying to piece together tricks-n-licks into a cogent piece of sound.


Dont play jazz-by-numbers, make art!





(i promise, if you told Beethoven a modern analysis of his own music, that he stretched a theme this way, that he expounded a motif contrapunctally here and there, hed say "oh ****, i did didnt i" start with SOUND, then analyze, not the other way around)



really hope this helps, i feel its the best approach