Modal theory query

[SpawnofHastur]

Alrighty, folks! I happen to know a relatively good amount of modal theory- I know how to construct the diatonic and melodic minor modes and everything.

But my question here is: can you apply the modal framework to, say the pentatonic or blues scale? As in, you have the major pentatonic that's played from the root and then as a seperate mode, the major pentatonic played from the second scale degree and so on.

I ask this because I've seen quite a few lessons on the five 'boxes' of the pentatonic scales and was wondering if it was fruitful to approach other scales in the modal method- I know the symmetrical scales would be a bit off using the modal form of construction for theory...I'm more or less asking because I'm merely wondering if you can apply, say, the 'second mode' of the blues scale to a particular chord type and so on and whether I should try doing this with all the scales I learn.

[John Wentzien]

Try looking at it from a chordal standpoint instead of modes.

Too many players get hung up on scales..they are too linear to be of much use in the "real-world"

[jefkritz]

sure - except the 'second' mode would be from the third, as there is no second in pentatonics. worth noting that the sixth mode of the major pentatonic is the minor pentatonic. but yeah, you can certainly gain something from going modal on just about any scale.

[John Wentzien]

Unless your last name is 'Malmsteen' or something.

[mambo4]

You could apply a'modal' approach to any scale in certain sense, but the farther away you go from diatonic scales, the less practically useful it will be for coping with harmony.

As mentioned it is better to think of pentatonics as diatonic scales with 2 notes omitted.

And particulary as mentioned, thinking in chords,chord tones, and passing tones instead of scales and modes is generally more useful.
You will likely gain more practical insight from going back to the major scale and exploring how to generate the associated chords (if you haven't yet)

Which is not to say that intersting ideas can't arise from modal experiments...

[Tehrin Cole]

Wherever there's a scale,there'll always be a set of modes within them.
Although the pentatonic scale is a relatively short scale compared to the diatonic,it nonetheless,has a set of modes. Also,there are different types of pentatonic scales,just as there are different types of diatonic scales.

Here are a few examples of some frequently used pentatonic scales:
Diatonic:C-D-E-G-A .


Pelog:C-Db-Eb-G-Ab .

Hirajoshi:C-D-Eb-G-Ab .

Kumoi:C-D-Eb-G-A .
Each of these examples has its own modal inversion,and as you can see,lends itself to many chord voicings.
I just gave you these scales in the key of C. Practice these scales in all 12 keys,...let me know how you've made out!

Peace!

[ryco]

I would recommend experimenting and see what you come up with.
The pentatonic and blues scales have some wide intervals, but just explore.

I feel both scales and chords are good to know and useful in playing. Scales are useful for lines.
But 90% of bass playing is chord tones and harmony.
Both are important to know.

[BahamaBass]

do you know your 7 modes in any key?

taking each mode has 7 notes...8th being the octave.

now to get pentatonic just minus 2 notes in each mode. basically strip each mode down to a box. at least thats how I look at it.

if you can see these boxes than you can play pentatonic modes.

[Tehrin Cole]

Practicality all depends on the musical situation ie;the type of music you're playing.
If any of this stuff weren't practical,then it wouldn't be documented! Don't make too much work for yourself thinking about practicality because ALL music is practical,and you'll only end up confusing yourself!
Practice all of this stuff,and I guarantee you that the"practicality",WILL make itself manifest! As I've previously stated,it depends on the situation,and the need!

Peace!

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by jefkritz

sure - except the 'second' mode would be from the third, as there is no second in pentatonics.

The Major Pentatonic has a 2nd, the Minor doesn't.


C Major Pentatonic:

C D E G A C - 1 2 3 5 6 8


A Minor Pentatonic:

A C D E G A - 1 b3 4 5 b7 8

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

But my question here is: can you apply the modal framework to, say the pentatonic or blues scale? As in, you have the major pentatonic that's played from the root and then as a seperate mode, the major pentatonic played from the second scale degree and so on.

Pentatonics usually aren't thought of in terms of modes, except for the Major/Minor relationship (the minor would be the 5th mode of the major).

My understanding:

The Major Pentatonic and the Blues scale are not diatonic. That is, they do not have 7 tones and do not naturally form Tertian chords. These scales are really more tools for playing over pre-existing chords.

Additionally, the reason Major Scale modes (for example) generate new sounds is that they relocate the semitones. The Major Pentatonic doesn't have semi-tones.


So in summary you can think of these scales in terms of modes, maybe to generate some dexterity exercises, but I wouldn't really call what you would be playing "modal".

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Unless your last name is 'Malmsteen' or something.

Phrygian major over and over really fast!!

[Tehrin Cole]

Let me give you a further breakdown of the scales I've given you,in my initial posting.

Modes,simply put,are inversions of the scale,from which it's derived,or more simply,scales within a scale.

Here's the breakdown:
Diatonic:C-D-E-G-A. 1st inv.D-E-G-A-C. 2nd inv.E-G-A-C-D. 3rd inv.G-A-C-D-E. 4th inv.A-C-D-E-G.

Pelog:C-Db-Eb-G-Ab. 1st inv.Db-Eb-G-Ab-C. 2nd inv.Eb-G-Ab-C-Db. 3rd inv.G-Ab-C-Db-Eb. 4th inv.Ab-C-Db-Eb-G.

Hirajoshi:C-D-Eb-G-Ab. 1st inv.D-Eb-G-Ab-C. 2nd inv.Eb-G-Ab-C-D. 3rd inv.G-Ab-C-D-Eb. 4th inv.Ab-C-D-Eb-G.

Kumoi:C-D-Eb-G-A. 1st inv.D-Eb-G-A-C. 2nd inv.Eb-G-A-C-D. 3rd inv.G-A-C-D-Eb. 4th inv.A-C-D-Eb-G.

You can clearly see that,each of these scales has its own modal inversion.

These scales are also known as"chord scales"because as you can see,they lend themselves very nicely to many chord voicings.They're great for both soloing,and creating lines and melodies! They're very easily applied to the bass!

As always,practice these scales in all 12 keys!

Peace!

[onlyclave]

Throw away "The Bass Grimoire".

That book is useless.

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

Alrighty, folks! I happen to know a relatively good amount of modal theory- I know how to construct the diatonic and melodic minor modes and everything.

But my question here is: can you apply the modal framework to, say the pentatonic or blues scale? As in, you have the major pentatonic that's played from the root and then as a seperate mode, the major pentatonic played from the second scale degree and so on.

I ask this because I've seen quite a few lessons on the five 'boxes' of the pentatonic scales and was wondering if it was fruitful to approach other scales in the modal method- I know the symmetrical scales would be a bit off using the modal form of construction for theory...I'm more or less asking because I'm merely wondering if you can apply, say, the 'second mode' of the blues scale to a particular chord type and so on and whether I should try doing this with all the scales I learn.

Well, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. There's also nothing stopping you from inventing a new mode.

BTW you think you know modes? Modes were invented in ancient Greece and were not based on the diatonic scale. Modes were actually based on root-to-fourth and fifth-to-octave (avoiding the tritone or flat fifth). The rule is you can't have two half steps in a row & you can't skip more than a whole step. This lead to only a few combination.

whole-whole-half
whole-half-whole
half-whole-whole

Two whole-whole-half modes and you get a major scale.
Two whole-half-whole modes and you get a minor scale.

The first two modes already existed (since they came from nature), so the Greeks basically invented the third mode out of these arbitrary rules. "Hey it worked the other two times maybe it will work this time" and it does work melodically - not so much harmonically, but music back then was primarily melodic & not harmonic. The Greek wrote a bunch of songs based on it & its influence can be heard in Greek music to this day. The flat second serves as a sort of leading tone into the root. Listen to Diamada Galas' Skotoseme for an example - during the drone intro (and yes that's John Paul Jones on bass).

[MalcolmAmos]

As usual modes will get a conversation going, however, as has been mentioned in earlier posts, in my World most old time Country players have no idea what a mode is, and I question the need for them in Country Bass.

Sure, if you are taking a lead break, perhaps, but most Country lead breaks just consist of playing the verse's melody, i.e. the song's tune and the old Major scale will get that job done very nicely.

Of course that's MHO.

Should you know and understand modes? Sure. Why? Well, we need to know everything we can about our music, however, that does not mean we need to use it all - in every song we play. Most Country is dirt simple, I question that our riffs have enough space for a pentatonic scale much less a mode. Would Lydian's sharp 4th help - depends. Try it and see.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Throw away "The Bass Grimoire".

That book is useless.

Amen.

Here are a few examples of some frequently used pentatonic scales:

When was the last time you heard/used the Pelog scale as such? Can you name any piece of music that uses Hirojoshi like you described it? Probably not nearly as easily as any one of the thousands upon thousands of pieces of music that use major pentatonic or its minor pentatonic. Armchair western theorists created these synthetic scales basing them off pentatonic patterns in Japanese, Chinese and Southeast asian musics, but no guitarist/bassist reading them off the internet/grimoire is going to have any insight into the actual melodic tendencies of these pitch collections. Saying those others are frequently used is rather misleading. There is a lot to be learned from just the major/minor pentatonic universe, no need to confuse things yet.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

Well, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. There's also nothing stopping you from inventing a new mode.

BTW you think you know modes? Modes were invented in ancient Greece and were not based on the diatonic scale. Modes were actually based on root-to-fourth and fifth-to-octave (avoiding the tritone or flat fifth). The rule is you can't have two half steps in a row & you can't skip more than a whole step. This lead to only a few combination.

whole-whole-half
whole-half-whole
half-whole-whole

Two whole-whole-half modes and you get a major scale.
Two whole-half-whole modes and you get a minor scale.

The first two modes already existed (since they came from nature), so the Greeks basically invented the third mode out of these arbitrary rules. "Hey it worked the other two times maybe it will work this time" and it does work melodically - not so much harmonically, but music back then was primarily melodic & not harmonic. The Greek wrote a bunch of songs based on it & its influence can be heard in Greek music to this day. The flat second serves as a sort of leading tone into the root. Listen to Diamada Galas' Skotoseme for an example - during the drone intro (and yes that's John Paul Jones on bass).

Although I've never really studied it in depth before, I find tetrachordal theory fascinating. It's a great method for deriving scales and it has interesting pedagogical implications.

However, when we talking about the modes or the "Greek modes", we really aren't talking about the modes as the Greeks used them. In the 6th century when Gregorian chant was developed under Pope Gregory I, music scholars in the church resurrected the Greek modes and organized them into the system of Gregorian chant (which is the immediate predecessor to the gamut, or the major scale). However, they misinterpreted the texts, and assigned names (Dorian, Aeolian, etc) to modes that didn't have much of anything to do with the Greek counterparts. Later, from these chant modes, a concept of hexachords (soft, natural, hard) was developed that eventually were synthesized into the diatonic gamut. This is how modes are used today - we take the basic diatonic scale as its defined by half steps and whole steps and start on different pitches. We don't build them necessarily from the tetrachords, although its a nice little trick.

Interestingly enough, there are exactly 14 scales that don't have consecutive half-steps and also don't have intervals wider than a half step - the major scale and the melodic minor scale and all of their derivative modes.

[John Wentzien]

Don't forget the whole-tone scale.

[HaVIC5]

*7-note scales. There is actually only 1 six-note scale that fulfills that, and that's the whole tone.