Modes are driving me crazy

[JTE]

In my experience, knowing what an Amin7 CHORD is has been more useful than thinking about whether I should use F or F# for it. I know the targets are A C E G. If it's a stand alone chord, or it's not in an obvious key center, then whether I use F or F# as a passing tone is up to my ear and my discretion (with the usual caveats of what other musicians I'm playing with think, the "sound" of the song, etc.). So thinking about A Dorian or A Aeolian has been pointless.

If it's in a key center, use the sixth that's appropriate for the key. If it's not in a key center (e.g. an Amin7 vamp) then use your ear to determine which sixth to play. But then you've got five of the seven notes figured out, don't you? Say the F# sounds right= then you know your line is based on A C E G F#. That only leaves a choice on the B and D. No natural key/mode has F# and Bb, nor F# and B# with C natural. Therefore it's A Dorian and you're good to go.

Don't over think this stuff, just build up from the basics. And modal playing ain't basic to most music that electric bass players play. So, don't get hung up on them until you understand how chords are built and you've got the harmonized scale into your databanks (the A-D steps in my previous post).

THEN dig into modes.

John

[Johnny StingRay]

Originally Posted by Zigmundfloyd

And more importantly what makes C Dorian different from C Aeolian. Why that? Because at some point you're going to be told that you use Dorian over minor chords, but you also use Aeolian over minor chords. But they ain't interchangeable. And if you know your chords, and you know the harmonized scale, you'll SEE for yourself exactly why A Aeolian is the right choice for Amin7 sometimes and sometimes it's better to use A Dorian.


jte

Could you elaborate a little more on this please? I really need a "lightbulb moment" on what to use with minor chords, flat 6, or natural 6......................[/quote]


It depends on the key center. If the key is Bb major then for a Cm7 I would run through C Dorian scale. If the key center is Eb major then for Cm7 I'd play through a C Aeolian scale.

I must qualify my response by saying that when I'm playing a jazz standard and the chord changes are every four beats or two beats, I'm usually just playing arpeggios, both written and substitutes, with various leading notes.

I play modes when the chord changes are few and far between, or when the tune is a modal tune. Otherwise, just playing arpeggios would be boring as hell, even if I was throwing in substitutions to make it more interesting.

Just as if I was just playing modes through a jazz standard, that would be boring as hell also.

Scales, modes, arpeggios, substitutions: They are all tools that a well rounded bassist should know. But, as with any tool, it only works when used properly and what it is designed to accomplish. Also, "It's a poor worker who blames his tools for his own ineptness."

Originally Posted by JTE

Don't use 'em unless you're playing modal music. If it's chordal, use the chords. Modes have a place, but that place is NOT the way it's generally taught. If you're going to have to come up with a bass line for a progression that goes Dmin to G7 to C, and someone tells you to use D dorian, then G mixolydian, then C Ionian, move away from them.

Why? Because those three chords define the key of C, and thinking of them as three separate entities with their own scales totally defeats the purpose of them being in the same key.

So, first, instead of learning all the modes at the beginning, learn this...

A. What is the diatonic major scale? Know what its whole-step and half-step pattern is, be able to figure it out in any key (using the correct enharmonics!), be able to play it on one string in any key, and be able to hear the note in your head before you play it.

B. Learn basic chord formulae. Know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, a 7th is 1 3 5 b7, a minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7, a major 7 is 1 3 5 7, etc. You don't need to go beyond the 7th chords to 9th, 11ths, etc. But understand four note chords, what it means when someone says "minor 7b5", etc.)

C. Learn the harmonized major scale.

D. That helps you learn the chords in the scale, so you know what folks mean when they say "ii V I" or "I IV V".

E. Then when you start learning modes, learn them in one key. Don't learn that C Ionian is the same notes as D Dorian. Instead, it's vital to learn what it is that makes C Ionian different from C Dorian. And more importantly what makes C Dorian different from C Aeolian. Why that? Because at some point you're going to be told that you use Dorian over minor chords, but you also use Aeolian over minor chords. But they ain't interchangeable. And if you know your chords, and you know the harmonized scale, you'll SEE for yourself exactly why A Aeolian is the right choice for Amin7 sometimes and sometimes it's better to use A Dorian.

THAT'S how you use modes and scales in general. It's not a formula, it's process of learning how music works.

jte

good post