Modes in gospel music

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Lorisco

Yes, except for the root - fifth explanation. Actually, the fifth's in a diatonic sequence are all perfect fifths or the same interval from the root, which means they tell you nothing about each chord (except for the diminished chord [flat fifth]).

But playing the fifths are cool, but for the opposite reason given above. It's because they don't say anything about the chord that makes them useful (and the fact that they are easy to locate and play being all the same distance from the root).

So you can play fifth's all day and never need to worry about getting in the way of other harmony or the melody. This is the same reason pentatonic scale works so well,; because it sounds chord neutral.

The point is how the tones function in the chord. C and G tell you it's a C chord, as E tells you it's major while Eb tells you it's minor. A C all by itself doesn't define the C chord while C and G do (or how Gb makes it diminished while G# makesnit augmented).

John

[MarkMgibson]

Forget about modes altogether. As others have said, concentrate on common chord progressions used in Gospel. 2-5-1 and 6-2-5-1 are extremely common: 1-6-2-5-1; 3-6-2-5-1; 5-6-2-5-1. Also 7-3-6 is common, as are variations on the standard 1-4-5 blues chords.

Perhaps you could get a book of Gospel standards (or download one) and start there.

Regards,
Mark

[Lorisco]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

Well I would summarize it like this:

Gospel is a mix between Blues harmony and diatonic harmony,so,

Major Blues scale is very useful and bringing that dominant sound over I and IV is very strong too. Also the diatonic harmony( which means MODES !!!) is also a big factor in the creation of useful and supportive basslines.

Please do yourself a favor and make sure you understand that Modes from the major scale (for a start) are the base of diatonic chords progressions found in about every piece of music you will encounter and knowing which proper's one to use over each chord is the actual role of a good bass player.

+2

Gospel basslines frequently combine the pentatonic scale with modes (adding major 7th or 4th) or the blues scale (adding a flat 7th, 5th, or 3rd). This is also done with chord tones. But if you think about it, the different between the pentatonic scale, chord tones, and modes is frequently only one or two notes. For example, C maj is C, E, and G. C Maj pentatonic is C, D, E, G, A. So the difference is only D and A.

But the bottom line is that good gospel players do this by ear; meaning they just play through scales and chords playing what sounds good to them them, not by theory. So the key is to know your fret board and all the scales and chord tones so well that you don't need to think about them when playing. You just play what sounds good to you.

[Johnny StingRay]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

I preferr the Bb Pentacostal.

Or the Gsus arpeggio!

[MarkMgibson]

Also the diatonic harmony( which means MODES !!!) is also a big factor in the creation of useful and supportive basslines.

Please do yourself a favor and make sure you understand that Modes from the major scale (for a start) are the base of diatonic chords progressions found in about every piece of music you will encounter and knowing which proper's one to use over each chord is the actual role of a good bass player.

Since western music is based nearly exclusively on the diatonic scale system (major, minor, pentatonic, etc), when you use the terms "diatonic harmony" and "diatonic chord progressions", the "diatonic" is superfluous. You're simply talking about harmony and chord progressions. What does that have to do with modes?

[stagebanter]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Since western music is based nearly exclusively on the diatonic scale system (major, minor, pentatonic, etc), when you use the terms "diatonic harmony" and "diatonic chord progressions", the "diatonic" is superfluous. You're simply talking about harmony and chord progressions. What does that have to do with modes?

There is a lot of chromatic motion in gospel music, especially in the bass, e.g. praise break/shout runs. Maybe he was talking about that.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

What does that have to do with modes?

Because modes, the Greek ones comes from the major scale. The majority of the chord progressions found in western music comes from it and the minor harmonic scale, even if this seems odd for some dudes in here.
A lot of music educators worldwide find it obvious to associate functional harmony with modes. That makes a lot of sense since these modes do come from the same source: the major scale!

So my point was that even in Gospel music which is not very different then most music styles, we can explain chord progression and their functions with modes and scales.

[MarkMgibson]

It seems odd to me for sure, but perhaps it's an age thing. Modes were barely mentioned when I learned music, and I still see little (read "zero") practical use for them. Still, each to their own.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

It seems odd to me for sure, but perhaps it's an age thing. Modes were barely mentioned when I learned music, and I still see little (read "zero") practical use for them. Still, each to their own.

May be it would be the time to study theory with a good teacher (not necessarily a bass player) to know how you can use them in your daily playing.

having too many holes in your pocket won't help you keeping your stuff together

[Lorisco]

Saying modes are useless is like saying slash chords or inverted chords sound the same as chords with the root based or non-inverted chords.

So just like the lowest pitch sounds like the root or sets the tone of the chord/scale, the same is true for modes. For example, play a Gmaj scale/chord and then play a dorian (A,B,C,D,E,F#,G,A) starting on an A note that is lower in pitch than the G and see how it sounds. It will not sound like a typical G major scale.

Read some jazz theory using tetra-chords and you we see just how useful modes are.

Peace!

[MarkMgibson]

Saying modes are useless is like saying slash chords or inverted chords sound the same as chords with the root based or non-inverted chords.

I've been learning music (and playing music) for over 30 years; mainly as a guitar player, but I play a few instruments. Bass guitar is fairly new for me (which is why I visit this forum). I didn't say modes were useless, I said "I see little practical use for them".

I'm not sure why you would equate inverted chords with modes, other than to make something basic sound more complicated. As for me reading "jazz theory", does it somehow differ from other music theory? As for this nonsense about starting scales from notes other than the root note; well, let's take it further: start your scales from a different note, then mix the order of those notes. What do you get? [B}Melody[/b].

Why overcomplicate the two most basic musical concepts, harmony and melody, with all this modal gibberish?

[Bainbridge]

Originally Posted by Lorisco

Saying modes are useless is like saying slash chords or inverted chords sound the same as chords with the root based or non-inverted chords.

So just like the lowest pitch sounds like the root or sets the tone of the chord/scale, the same is true for modes. For example, play a Gmaj scale/chord and then play a dorian (A,B,C,D,E,F#,G,A) starting on an A note that is lower in pitch than the G and see how it sounds. It will not sound like a typical G major scale.

If you're only playing scales from note to note, I can see how you would make that conclusion. I am inclined to agree MarkMGibson: 'modes' are largely a useless item. I hear kids all the time saying "if the chords are C F G, you play C ionian over C, F lydian over F, and G mixolydian over G", which is patently ridiculous, because it's all the same scale, and moreover, that's a chord progression within a single key. More distracting than helpful; learn yer chord tones.

Read some jazz theory using tetra-chords and you we see just how useful modes are.

Tetrachords are indeed useful in modal music, but I don't know that 'jazz theory' offers any unique perspective, nor can I see how they would prove modes' usefulness. In fact, I hardly hear reference to tetrachords by either jazz academics or staunch non-academics. Perhaps you could elaborate.

[joebar]

Originally Posted by Lorisco

Yes, except for the root - fifth explanation. Actually, the fifth's in a diatonic sequence are all perfect fifths or the same interval from the root, which means they tell you nothing about each chord (except for the diminished chord [flat fifth]).

But playing the fifths are cool, but for the opposite reason given above. It's because they don't say anything about the chord that makes them useful (and the fact that they are easy to locate and play being all the same distance from the root).

So you can play fifth's all day and never need to worry about getting in the way of other harmony or the melody. This is the same reason pentatonic scale works so well,; because it sounds chord neutral.

+1 beauty

[joebar]

yes i would say chord tones are where it is at

a fifth doesn`t define a chord as was previously mentioned (except a diminished triad but that only hints at the definition-b5)

as far as modes go-
vicious wars have been fought over this one subject more times than anyone can count.

[stagebanter]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I didn't say modes were useless, I said "I see little practical use for them"

Just want to chime in real quick that I use modes for practical purposes on a regular basis. For example, I sometimes use the mixolydian mode in a piece with major tonality to give a certain sound that I really like...the only way I know how to describe this is to listen to a tune by Phish called "Gotta Jibboo"; Mike does exactly that in the bass while Trey and Page comp major chords over top of it and it sounds excellent.

As far as gospel music goes, there are a lot of flat sevens in the music, for example on "I Know Who I Am". So I use the Mixolydian mode a lot when playing in churches as well. Also I find that the Mixolydian mode is useful when moving away from the tonic in a descending fashion...if you move away down by a half step, to the major seven, then it doesn't really "escape" the note very well. So I always move away by a whole step and I use the mixolydian mode in that context as well.

I know this kind of sounds confusing; it's very hard for me to talk about these concepts as they mostly exist as sounds in my head.

[joebar]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

It seems odd to me for sure, but perhaps it's an age thing. Modes were barely mentioned when I learned music, and I still see little (read "zero") practical use for them. Still, each to their own.

i learned about modes around 25 years ago on a head-level sort of way. it never stopped me from being a good player.
then i found out many years later that i learned about them the wrong way.
then one day the lightbulb went off and i got the revelation of them.
it is hard to put into words explaining modes, but you will know when you get it.

[MarkMgibson]

I blame Yngwie Malmsteen; he started this mode craze in the late 80's, and he's probably the worst guitarist I ever heard. Thankfully he quickly disappeared up his own ass, along with his "music".

[Lorisco]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I've been learning music (and playing music) for over 30 years; mainly as a guitar player, but I play a few instruments. Bass guitar is fairly new for me (which is why I visit this forum). I didn't say modes were useless, I said "I see little practical use for them".

I'm not sure why you would equate inverted chords with modes, other than to make something basic sound more complicated. As for me reading "jazz theory", does it somehow differ from other music theory? As for this nonsense about starting scales from notes other than the root note; well, let's take it further: start your scales from a different note, then mix the order of those notes. What do you get? [B}Melody[/b].

Why overcomplicate the two most basic musical concepts, harmony and melody, with all this modal gibberish?

I'm not sure how I got in the position to be the defender of modes? Personally, I think in terms of chord tones, which I find most useful compared to any scale (model or not). But, modes are a useful concept and they do sound different than the major scale. But to each his own.

[Lorisco]

Originally Posted by Bainbridge

Tetrachords are indeed useful in modal music, but I don't know that 'jazz theory' offers any unique perspective, nor can I see how they would prove modes' usefulness. In fact, I hardly hear reference to tetrachords by either jazz academics or staunch non-academics. Perhaps you could elaborate.

Tetrachords are taught at the Berklee school of music where they focus on linear improvisation instead of chordal improve. See Paul De Nero who is the associate Professor.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I've been learning music (and playing music) for over 30 years; mainly as a guitar player, but I play a few instruments. Bass guitar is fairly new for me (which is why I visit this forum). I didn't say modes were useless, I said "I see little practical use for them".


Why overcomplicate the two most basic musical concepts, harmony and melody, with all this modal gibberish?

When playing a bassline, the bass player IS THE ONLY MEMBER in the band that has to move horizontally compare to those playing chords vertically. Music moves forward and this is where the usage of the right mode over a chord is primordial to the forward motion of the harmony.

Everybody in the band is playing chords tones so there is no need for us to exclusively focus on them but more on the root and the other notes(the right notes) that connect them and this is done by playing the right mode at the right moment. There is no way a bass player can support the harmony effectively by playing a Dorian mode when the minor chord functions as a IIImin7 for example!.

This is so easy that untrained bassists think it is bogus. But in the real life of a pro bass player, modes do rule big time when you know what to do with them !!!