Modes...How to use them practically in music.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Unless you're going on to get a graduate degree and then doctorate in music theory.

I don't think either of those things make a person's opinion infallible on the other hand.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

That's true. I'm not sure if you are seeing the point I'm making though.

I could say exactly the same thing of myself, that my limitations aren't the line between what the next person can or should do either. When you say that theory can be useless without practical application I agree on one level, but you have to keep in mind that music theory is both the result of and the impetus for practical application and as such one is not really exclusive of the other.

What I am really saying here is that there is really no line between theory and practical application since any theory can be put into practice and any practical application can be theoretically analysed. Which, comes back to this specific case in point, where you might say that modal thinking is useless to you in a practical sense, but to be fair you can't say it wouldn't be of use to anyone.

The best I can give is my experience, that includes knowledge. I'm not saying theory and practical application are exclusive and I'm not saying my way is the best way - but it is one way.

[taphappy]

Edited my original post to hopefully make it more accurate...

Originally Posted by mutedeity

...tend to lead a lot of people down the garden path more than make sense of the theory. I can see you are trying to clarify for yourself as well though.

Very much so. My trying to explain something that I'm working on, and somebody else pointing out the mistakes, that helps a lot.

I start to learn better via garden path. Need a foundation to work from in order to build. A lot of the stuff you guys are saying is like explaining quantum particle physics to a kid who just starting playing with magnets and iron filings. You say "quark", and it's so above my head that my brain shorts out, and my response is, "I like Garbage Pail Kids."

I know it's garden (hopefully better now), but with that basic knowledge I have, now I can actually read the replies from you guys, and they click. So I end up with progress, rather than keeping tissue paper next to my computer to mop up the drool.

Secondly, Dm7 (dmin7, or Dmin7 as I would write it), for example, doesn't necessarily = D Dorian.

Oop...yep yep, I didn't specify we were in C Major. Fixed that in the post. doh.

This effectively goes to paradigms like Ornette Coleman's Harmelodic theory and George Russell's Lydian Dominant theory.

...I like Garbage Pail Kids.

I'm probably getting a little ahead of you there

Totally. Well, citing theories, yes :) But...hear what you're saying as far as scales defining arpeggios and chords, not the other way around.

not the chords that determine the scale unless you are using the context of a series of related chords to determine a "key" or you are using a certain paradigm to imply which melodic structure will best fit a particular chord.

Totally haven't gotten anywhere near there, yet. Useless with chord theory. That's my next stop on the line, I believe.

You can also note that your V chord is dominant.

Any way to write that? VIIo = diminished...anything for dominant? Specify it afterwards? Or does the fact that you're stating the minor ii and the major I in the ii-V-I tell you what you need to know, that it has to be a dominant V?

For example when you say "II-V-I jazz walker" someone like me would read that as DMaj - GMaj - Cmaj.

Oop...awesome! Didn't know about that...

Can you check out the edits I made on the original post, let me know if it's on track now? I know it's incredibly basic, but is it accurate?

I know this is picking at semantics

No no no, not in the least. You just pointed out some very important assumptions I should not have omitted, turned it around so I can more effectively explain myself, AND understand others at a much higher level. Which I'm totally geeking on as we speak :)

So, thanks!! :D

-tap

[pinkzepphish]

when you play a song with chord changes, theres a perfect opportunity to use mode knowledge. during a 1 chord, play the first mode, during a 4 chord play the 4th mode, yadda yadda. you could arpeggiate, or you could just doink around, but either way modes put you in a good position

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by taphappy

Any way to write that? VIIo = diminished...anything for dominant? Specify it afterwards? Or does the fact that you're stating the minor ii and the major I in the ii-V-I tell you what you need to know, that it has to be a dominant V?

-tap

Normally you will use lower case Roman numerals with a little circle for diminished, viio for example. As far as a dominant goes, a dominant is really the function of the V chord resolving to the tonic. You can substitute and and have secondary functions for this as well though. Generally you might write the dominant as a V7. For example you might have ii-V7-I.

You might also have II7-V7-I where the II7 chord resolves to the V7 chord by altering the 3rd of the ii chord to become the leading tone the the V chord. This is a typical circle of 5ths/4ths alteration.

[Phil Smith]

vii^o

[kynoch]

Originally Posted by taphappy

Since it was mentioned...the key to finally having my light turn on for modes was in arpeggios. I'm going really basic here, any corrections by those in the know, or suggestions to improve the practice, go nuts

Just in case you don't have this map - here be the major scale degrees, modes, and arpeggios:

deg - mode - arpeggio
---------------------

I --- ionian ---- Maj7
ii -- dorian ---- min7
iii --phrygian -- min7
IV - lydian ----- Maj7
V -- mixolydian - dominant
vi - aeolian ---- min7
VII - locrian ---- min7(b5)

It breaks down to only four arpeggios, due that we're now only concerned with half of the notes of the scale. Dorian and phrygian use the same min7 arpeggio even though they're mismatched on both the 2nd and 6th scale degrees; 1st 3rd 5th and 7th scale degrees are exactly the same. Yay, arpeggio!

So, now we got half the stuff to worry about. Since we tend to hang out with drummers a lot, this is a very good thing

EADG gave a great progression example, I'll dumb it down even further to a simple ii-V-I (V being dominant) in C Major jazz walker and add the arps:

Due that we're in C Major:

ii = Dm7 = D Dorian --- min7 (1 b3 5 b7)
V = G7 = G Mixolydian - 7 (1 3 5 b7 - dominant)
I = Cmaj7 = C Ionian - Maj7 (1 3 5 7)

As a very basic walking line, walk those arps ascending from their respective root notes.

Once you're comfy repeating the arpeggios, walk around with that ii-V-I as a backing track in your head, but just using the modes. Start walking with D dorian, all the way through. Then G Mixo. Then C Ionian. It's all the key of C Major, just with different root notes, so. Very yummy.

Then see what happens if you try to walk around in D aeolian over that I chord where the Dmin7 arpeggio worked so nicely. The first time that I spaced where I was, I hit the b6 due to forgetting I wasn't in D aeolian, and that's where it went "click" for me. I went "ohhhh...." then started happily running around the neck in D dorian.

Rest of these guys are going "duh" right now, but hey. It was a big thing for me

Anyways!

I jam along to midi files. In this case, if you don't have any...use the key of C one in "Major ii-V-I All 12 Keys.zip":

http://www.houstonbasslessons.com/play_alongs.html

I starting practicing this off the Dave Marks walking lessons (there be 9 of em, methinks):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ7MfADYRmg

His website's down, and the PDFs are on there with arp shapes and such...so here's a link to a lesson PDF. Just change the number in the link for any others. The vids and PDFs are really, really nice so far for where I'm at. Basic, but smart.

http://www.davemarks.com/pdf.youtube....Walking01.pdf

Tip o' the iceberg, and just a baby step to start with, but. Hopefully this helps. Don't know if it's pretty, but it was the missing link for me. So far it's done wonders for clearing out unwanted boxes, opening options, and facilitating improv and solo ideas.

Hopefully this is a good route, 'cause I've been practicing the poop out of it

-tap

Dude I have been having so much fun jamming over those audio tracks....walking around and attempting solo ideas...such fun....I am still hitting the odd bum not or sticking on a chord to long sometimes....but hey....practice right.

My presumption is that this theory can be applied to any form of music....I feel I have had a light bulb moment....my only fear is what you said about ...""TIP OF THE ICEBERG""

Thanks again to everybody and It all seems to blow my mind at the moment but I can´t wait until I understand all of whats being said...Thanks