Modes Question

[avenger7326]

I just want somebody to correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

E Dorian and D Ionian (Major) are comprised of the same notes the difference is the tonic or resolving note (correct my terminology if wrong please.)

So while they are comprised of the same notes the tonic in D Ionian is D and the tonic in E Dorian is E.

So in a chord progression such as: Em, F#m, A, Bm, F#m the correct scale would be E Dorian because its in the key of D Major but E is the tonic.

I came up with the progression and therefore know the correct key is E Dorian by testing it I just want to make sure the logic (and terminology) I used to get there is correct. Any additions are welcome. Thanks.

[slybass3000]

Yes this is it and in your example all the scales would be based on D major. So basically you can play the mode of each chord : Dorian,Phrygian,Mixolydian and Aeolian. Or just play a big D major scale for melody or soloing and pay attention to melodic functions. To make the function of each chord more accurate you can add a b7 to all of them,especially the A which function as a dominant in the key of D. A lot of Funky grooves are based on Emin7 - A7 for an example.

Sly

[MalcolmAmos]

As no one has jumped on this ------- your theory is correct you choice of words are a little off.

The key is D and the scale is D. E Dorian is not a scale E Dorian is a mode, the second mode of the D major scale.

Nit picky I know, but, some get bent out of shape calling a mode a scale.

Now if E Dorian has the same notes as D Ionian, just in a different order - I bet the only difference you hear is an octave thing. What gives E Dorian it's unique sound?

[YeahDoIt]

I still have a lot to learn about music theory but I agree with you.

I recall reading terminology using the word "degree". In your case E Dorian is the second mode of degree D (the D major scale).

This is from my notes, but I don't know the source:

You can play a dorian mode over any minor chord.

For example,

If I am playing a C minor. The other soloist can play a C Dorian.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

As no one has jumped on this ------- your theory is correct you choice of words are a little off.

The key is D and the scale is D. E Dorian is not a scale E Dorian is a mode, the second mode of the D major scale.

Nit picky I know, but, some get bent out of shape calling a mode a scale.

Now if E Dorian has the same notes as D Ionian, just in a different order - I bet the only difference you hear is an octave thing. What gives E Dorian it's unique sound?

Well modes ARE scales. So yes you can play a E dorian scale. This is actually the purpose of modes.

Sly

[varunkapahi]

yep! Edorian it is imo
Eminor scale wouldnt work because it has a C note where as the chords A and F#m have the notes C# in them. am i right?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by avenger7326

I just want somebody to correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

E Dorian and D Ionian (Major) are comprised of the same notes the difference is the tonic or resolving note (correct my terminology if wrong please.)

So while they are comprised of the same notes the tonic in D Ionian is D and the tonic in E Dorian is E.

So in a chord progression such as: Em, F#m, A, Bm, F#m the correct scale would be E Dorian because its in the key of D Major but E is the tonic.

I came up with the progression and therefore know the correct key is E Dorian by testing it I just want to make sure the logic (and terminology) I used to get there is correct. Any additions are welcome. Thanks.

You've got it right. This example is NOT in the key of D, even if it uses the same notes. You can only be in D if the music is actually working as if it's in D. No D chord even occurs in your example, and there is no IV-I or V-I resolution to D, so it makes no sense to maintain that the progression is in D. A tonic that never even appears can't possibly be the tonic. (If it did shortly get to D and resolve there, my answer would be different--then you could say you were in D.)

Modes, in one sense, are scales; there is no conceptual difference worth worrying about. Mode is just a name we give to certain scales. Mode is also what we call certain kinds of "keys" that aren't conventional major or minor. (There was a discussion that touched on this stuff a few days back; I posted at possibly tedious length about modal matters here: Do I understand modes?)

There's a basic theoretical issue you might want to straighten out--the idea that you can be in the mode (="key") of E dorian and also simultaneously be in the key of D major. You can't: it's one or the other (though which one can be a matter of interpretation). The name of the mode/key is defined by your tonic note. If your tonic note is E, it cannot simultaneously be D; if it is D, it cannot simultaneously be E. The probable source of this confusion is the way modes are commonly introduced to learners as necessarily built off degrees of the major scale. That often has people thinking that you can't be p;laying in a mode without some imaginary major key of origin lurking nearby. But congrats for resisting that temptation!

Just remember, "contains the same notes as key X" is NOT the same thing as "is in the key of X." It takes TWO things to define a key/modality: (1) a set of notes AND (2) a tonic/key note. If you don't have both, you don't have the specified key/mode. In your example, if you don't have D as a tonic, you cannot be in D major. From what you've given us, E dorian seems to be a good interpretation.

Keep at it, you've got the right idea.

[Schlyder]

Richard, you need to brush up on some theory. If I play the chords Dm7 to G7, I am in the key of Cmajor. Or if I play a D dorian scale(mode), which is built from the second degree of the Cmajor scale and then transition into a G Mixolydian scale(mode), which is built from the fifth degree of the C major scale. I am again still in C major. All this without ever playing a Cmajor chord.

Let's look at it this way and see if I can clear things up. Let's look at the Key of C major...

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C........... and then let's give the notes names numbers
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1


degree mode(scale) chord
_____________________________________
1 - 1 Ionian mode(scale) Major 7
2 - 2 Dorian mode(scale) minor 7
3 - 3 Phrygian mode(scale) minor 7
4 - 4 Lydian mode(scale) Major 7#11
5 - 5 Myxolydian mode(scale) Dominant 7
6 - 6 Aeolean mode(scale) minor 7
7 - 7 Locrian mode(scale) minor 7b5

all of this, if we are looking at it as numbers, would be in the "KEY" of 1. No matter if I am starting on a 2 and playing the mode off the second degree (dorian mode), or if I am playing an arpeggio built from the 3rd degree( 3, 5, 7, 2) a m7 arpeggio. All of this is DIATONIC to the KEY of 1

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

Richard, you need to brush up on some theory. If I play the chords Dm7 to G7, I am in the key of Cmajor. Or if I play a D dorian scale(mode), which is built from the second degree of the Cmajor scale and then transition into a G Mixolydian scale(mode), which is built from the fifth degree of the C major scale. I am again still in C major. All this without ever playing a Cmajor chord.

No, I don't--not regarding this particular point at issue; I've got lots to learn otherwise--and no, you aren't necessarily. We're talking about keys here, and keys are defined by how stuff functions, or doesn't. If your Dm7-G7 is immediately followed by a C, then sure, you're in C--it's a classic ii7-V7-I, because it functions as one. You've got a bread-and-butter cadence to an obvious tonic. But if you never get to a C and just play Dm7-G7 for 10 minutes and end on Dm7 (jam band, anyone?), then no, you're not in C major and never have been. If you think you are, you might want to consider brushing up yourself. You've been doing what you might call a i7-IV7 in D dorian for 10 minutes.

What you have to ask yourself is, how are things functioning, or not functioning? I know it's tempting to think that every time you see Dm7-G7 it's a ii7-V7 in C, but it just ain't so. If it doesn't quack like a duck, it's not a duck, even if it has feathers and likes water.

Also, you're confusing several different uses of the word mode:

1. Mode as a kind of scale.
2. Mode as a kind of key.
3. Mode as a kind of chord-scale.

Yes, you can play a different mode-as-chord-scale on every chord in a diatonic progression, but that does not mean you are in a different mode-as-key at every point. The OP is talking about establishing the key of a progression, not the use of chord-scales. At your dominant, for example, you can play the G mixolydian chord-scale if you want to, but you are not in the key/modality of G mixolydian.

[Schlyder]

if I have the progression...
Dm7 / G7/ Bbm7/Eb7/ Em7/ A7/ F#m7/B7

The first 2 bars are KEY of Cmajor, then next 2 bars it modulates to the KEY of AbMajor, then the next 2 bars it modulates to the KEY of DMajor, next 2 bars modulate to the KEY of EMajor.

Now if we look at the chords Dm7 to G7 again. I do not need to resolve back to a CMajor chord, to be in the KEY of CMajor. I can play Dm7 to G7 all day long, and it will be in the KEY of CMajor, all day long. Now I can play many things over those changes that are Diatonic or non Diatonic. But the function is still a IIm7 - V7 in the Key of CMajor.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

if I have the progression...
Dm7 / G7/ Bbm7/Eb7/ Em7/ A7/ F#m7/B7

The first 2 bars are KEY of Cmajor, then next 2 bars it modulates to the KEY of AbMajor, then the next 2 bars it modulates to the KEY of DMajor, next 2 bars modulate to the KEY of EMajor.

That's one way of looking at it, and often a useful one. Whether those are real modulations is open to question, because whether they truly establish a new key is debatable, especially at bebop tempos; you could also say they're a series of superimposed ii-Vs that merely suggest new keys.

Also, it depends on context. If those occur toward the end of a section of a standard and end up resolving in a functional way to a clear tonic, then you might tend to think of them more as ii-V in a set of keys, or at least as suggesting those keys. But if, OTOH, the progression is the whole tune--that is, if it's just a series of vamps--and you never see a clear tonic emerging out of those potential V7s, then you could just also analyze them as going from D dorian to Bb dorian to E dorian to F# dorian. The point is simply that you can't just look at a dom7 chord and think, oh, that means I must be in the key a 4th up from that. Sometiems that will be the right answer, and sometimes it won't. You have to look at how things are actually working.

The OP, however, is trying to deal with diatonic (diamodal?) harmony and basic key concepts. This is a bit outside the scope of that.

[Ray man]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

You've got it right. This example is NOT in the key of D, even if it uses the same notes. You can only be in D if the music is actually working as if it's in D. No D chord even occurs in your example, and there is no IV-I or V-I resolution to D, so it makes no sense to maintain that the progression is in D. A tonic that never even appears can't possibly be the tonic. (If it did shortly get to D and resolve there, my answer would be different--then you could say you were in D.)

Modes, in one sense, are scales; there is no conceptual difference worth worrying about. Mode is just a name we give to certain scales. Mode is also what we call certain kinds of "keys" that aren't conventional major or minor. (There was a discussion that touched on this stuff a few days back; I posted at possibly tedious length about modal matters here: Do I understand modes?)

There's a basic theoretical issue you might want to straighten out--the idea that you can be in the mode (="key") of E dorian and also simultaneously be in the key of D major. You can't: it's one or the other (though which one can be a matter of interpretation). The name of the mode/key is defined by your tonic note. If your tonic note is E, it cannot simultaneously be D; if it is D, it cannot simultaneously be E. The probable source of this confusion is the way modes are commonly introduced to learners as necessarily built off degrees of the major scale. That often has people thinking that you can't be p;laying in a mode without some imaginary major key of origin lurking nearby. But congrats for resisting that temptation!

Just remember, "contains the same notes as key X" is NOT the same thing as "is in the key of X." It takes TWO things to define a key/modality: (1) a set of notes AND (2) a tonic/key note. If you don't have both, you don't have the specified key/mode. In your example, if you don't have D as a tonic, you cannot be in D major. From what you've given us, E dorian seems to be a good interpretation.

Keep at it, you've got the right idea.

Yes, from what I know this is correct.

[Schlyder]

No it isn't outside that scope, we are talking plain Diatonic Harmony here.
Those are real modulations, 2 bars key of CMajor, 2 bars AbMajor, 2 bars DMajor, 2bars EMajor. So just looking at those chords given.. Dm7 / G7/ Bbm7/Eb7/ Em7/ A7/ F#m7/B7 you tell me then, what Key(s) are we playing in. How do you analyze these chords and decide what is going on harmonically.

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

If your Dm7-G7 is immediately followed by a C, then sure, you're in C--it's a classic ii7-V7-I, because it functions as one. You've got a bread-and-butter cadence to an obvious tonic. But if you never get to a C and just play Dm7-G7 for 10 minutes and end on Dm7 (jam band, anyone?), then no, you're not in C major and never have been.

+1
Something lots of beginners have problems grasping.

[Schlyder]

Quit confusing modes with keys you guys. Modes are derivatives of scales . They are just names of scales derived from the different steps from within the Major scale, or from other scales such as a Harmonic Minor scale.

[Ray man]

I think if you temporarily change the Bm to a B7 chord (from E harmonic minor), then it would truly make the E dorian sound like a tonic.
There is probably more to it, the F#m would sound like a ii chord, but this kills my brain. Modal interchange is weird.
I'll be thinking about this all day.

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by champbassist

+1
Something lots of beginners have problems grasping.

I am not a beginner, and it is not me having trouble grasping the concept of Keys and modes. This is basic stuff you guys. Read and study about the Harmonized Major scale, that is where the basic chords are produced, also the modes.
You all have heard the song "Doe a Deer" well that is a little tune built off of modes of the major scale.

so if we are in the Key of Do

Do, a deer a female deer,
(Do Major scale or Ionian mode/scale)

Ra, a shaft of golden light ( Ra dorian mode/scale)

Me, a name I call myself ( Me Phrygian mode/scale)

etc etc. all the modes are, are different color pallets within a related Key. They are not separate keys.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

Those are real modulations, 2 bars key of CMajor, 2 bars AbMajor, 2 bars DMajor, 2bars EMajor. So just looking at those chords given.. Dm7 / G7/ Bbm7/Eb7/ Em7/ A7/ F#m7/B7 you tell me then, what Key(s) are we playing in. How do you analyze these chords and decide what is going on harmonically.

I look at the whole picture. Once again, context. As I said, if it's just a bunch of vamps, probably a sequence of modes. It's hard to say with absolute certainty with a short sample.

And no, those aren't real modulations--you never even get to the putative new tonics! At most they'd be tonicizations, if that:

From Dolmetsch Online (emphasis mine):
"also called 'false modulation' or 'transitory modulation', tonicization is a process that temporarily allows a chord other than the tonic to function as a goal of motion or point of stability, and therefore, function as a temporary tonic. A chord is said to be "tonicized," when it is preceded by its own dominant, dominant seventh, seven chord, or diminished seventh, that is, the dominant determined by the key of the chord. Tonicization is a local event, unlike modulation, which implies establishing a new key centre and continuing in the new key. Any chord in a major key, except VII, can be preceded by its own dominant. Any chord in the natural minor, except II, can be preceded by its own dominant"

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

Quit confusing modes with keys you guys. Modes are derivatives of scales . They are just names of scales derived from the different steps from within the Major scale, or from other scales such as a Harmonic Minor scale.

Sorry, this is quite wrong. You can derive the modes this way, but modes can also be keys. That's the whole premise of modal harmony. "So What" for example is in D dorian/Eb dorian/D dorian. Would you seriously argue that it's really in C/Db/C? "Oye Como Va" is just Am7 and D7, that's it. Would you really try to argue that it's in G?

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

I am not a beginner, and it is not me having trouble grasping the concept of Keys and modes.

My comment wasn't directed towards you at all. This was a concept I couldn't grasp myself as a starter, so my comment was in appreciation of the fact that Richard pointed it out.