modes used in other scales besides the major

Coward Of Reali · #1 05-28-2005, 01:19 AM

So if I were to try and use modes on say, the major pentatonic would I base the intervals distance by the C major pentatonic like you do with the C major? Does it still make it Ionian, Dorian etc?

slybass3000 · #2 05-28-2005, 12:41 PM

Because there are only 5 notes in a Penta scale,I don't see them as modes. I would suggest to see it as a major penta then on the relative minor use the minor mode which is a minor seventh chord and add the b5 and you have the minor blues scale. Very useful!!!
SB

Tash · #3 05-28-2005, 09:01 PM

There are modes of different scales though. Since a mode is created by playing the same pitches as a given scale starting a different note, you can build modes out of any scale.

Harmonic and Melodic minor have some interesting modes.

DaemonBass · #4 05-28-2005, 10:45 PM

If you play a major pentatonic scale starting on a different note than the tonic, is it actually called a mode? Or is that reserved for the modes of the diatonic major scale? If it's just starting on a different note than the tonic (of course staying within the scale we're talking about) then I think I finally understand what modes mean. Otherwise, I am ******* once again.

DaemonBass · #5 05-28-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Because there are only 5 notes in a Penta scale,I don't see them as modes. I would suggest to see it as a major penta then on the relative minor use the minor mode which is a minor seventh chord and add the b5 and you have the minor blues scale. Very useful!!!
SB

So you're saying that if you're playing in a major key then the chord just happens to switch to the relative minor of that key... you would automatically start playing a blues scale? I don't see how that would work but what the hell do I know lol

slybass3000 · #6 05-29-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonBass

So you're saying that if you're playing in a major key then the chord just happens to switch to the relative minor of that key... you would automatically start playing a blues scale? I don't see how that would work but what the hell do I know lol

Well I'm not sure what you want to say about it. And may be the thing I wrote wasn't clear either.

Like Tash said before you can build modes from most scales.

But what I wanted to point out is the fact that a Major Penta for exemple is only a 5 notes scale and it is hard to conceive chords from them.
Let say we have C MajPen. (C,D,E,G and A) as the scale:
On mode I we have C6 or C6/9
On mode II we have sort of a D9 sus4
On mode III we more a C/E
On mode IV we G6 sus 4 add9 or more like a C/g or Amin7/G
On mode V we have Amin7

Personnally, I might be wrong but, I would build modes more from scales that have an impact on a tonality in the harmony like the Major scale ,the minor Harmonic and minor Melodic Jazz.

The thing I wanted to say about the Penta minor and the Blues scale is that they are very similar. On a F chord you can use F Maj Pent or the D min blues scale or the equivalent which is F Major Blues scale.

I hope this will help clarify this.
SB

Go to the Modes final thread for more on Modes

Bassist4Life · #7 05-30-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coward Of Reali

So if I were to try and use modes on say, the major pentatonic would I base the intervals distance by the C major pentatonic like you do with the C major?

If you start on any note other than C, it's going to be a mode of that scale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coward Of Reali

Does it still make it Ionian, Dorian etc?

No. I'm not sure what you would call each mode; maybe "permutations". It is an interesting theory question though.

Woah! Here we go! I did a quick search and I think I found our answer. Check this out. I knew I saw that word "permutation" before.

http://www.bassically.net/lessons/sc.../lessons/8.htm

Joe

Coward Of Reali · #8 05-31-2005, 12:17 AM

'If you start on any note other than C, it's going to be a mode of that scale.'

So if I go to the next root after C would I just call it Dorian or would it be Dorian in D?

I guess I'm just confused if modes are the intervals of a scale or if there determined by the root of where you start.

westland · #9 05-31-2005, 01:06 AM

In Jazz-Pop music, modes are generally the scales (analogous to the mediaeval Church Modes, which is why they are called ‘Modes’) that were reintroduced into jazz by Miles Davis and others in the 1970s and have become the basis for improvisation over chords.

The Church Modes had evolved by about the 11th century for chants. Modes were allowed at a time when the church was trying to stamp out secular music, which was based on major-minor scales (Ionian-Aeolian mode) and pentatonic scales (blues scale without the flat 5th). The pentatonic scale is not a mode, but was popular, partly as a result of instrument tuning.

It is worth noting that composers of chant were free to use a flatted B in modes I and II, and sometimes V and VI, thus mutating some of the modes toward the modern major or minor (folk modes: Ionian and Aeolian), which were frowned on by the church and used only for secular music - at least officially. The Ionian, in fact, was termed the "lascivious mode."

lemur821 · #10 05-31-2005, 01:11 AM

Modes are determined by the pattern they form. Ionian mode will always follow the same pattern of whole and half steps, and the Mixolydian mode will always be the same, but with a flatted seventh. If you start on a different note in a pentatonic scale, you will get a mode of that scale, not corresponding to any of the seven modes of the major scale. It is a mode, but it's not named. Generally numbers are used in that instance (first mode, second, and so on.

So if you did build modes from the major pentatonic, you would use its intervals, but the modes you got would not be named Ionian, Lydian, and such, since those names stand for particular patterns.

**Pacman** · #11 05-31-2005, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westland

In Jazz-Pop music, modes are generally the scales (analogous to the mediaeval Church Modes, which is why they are called ‘Modes’) that were reintroduced into jazz by Miles Davis and others in the 1970s and have become the basis for improvisation over chords.

1950s.

While the modes are used heavily in modal music, I wouldn't say they were THE basis for improvisation.

Moved to general instruction.

westland · #12 05-31-2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

1950s

1950s was BeBop, R&B, etc. ... I didn't think that was very modal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

While the modes are used heavily in modal music, I wouldn't say they were THE basis for improvisation.

... not for everybody ... what I should have said is that this is pretty much what Miles and his bands did, not that it's all that there is to improvisation (sorry). In my mind, modes are just another way of envisioning polychords ... you can either have a modal scale from which you select notes, or you can select notes from the root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, etc.

Richard Lindsey · #13 05-31-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westland

1950s was BeBop, R&B, etc. ... I didn't think that was very modal

Three words: Kind of Blue.

1959

Bassist4Life · #14 05-31-2005, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coward Of Reali

'If you start on any note other than C, it's going to be a mode of that scale.'

So if I go to the next root after C would I just call it Dorian or would it be Dorian in D?

I guess I'm just confused if modes are the intervals of a scale or if there determined by the root of where you start.

No. The Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian (and so on) are modal names you would ONLY use with the Major scale (the 6th mode of major is Aeolian or natural minor). The modal names for harmonic and melodic minor scales are similar, but they include alterations to the names.

To keep it simple, just use the modal names you're talking about with Major. As for Pentatonic scales, there are PERMUTATIONS of the scale. Check out the link that I provided.

Just curious, why are you interested in modes of the pentatonic scale? What are you aiming to do with them?
Joe

Coward Of Reali · #15 05-31-2005, 03:02 PM

I wasnt interested in the Pentatonic scale per se, I was just using it as an example as it was the first scale to come to mind

**Pacman** · #16 05-31-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Three words: Kind of Blue.

1959

Beat me to it.

He'd been experimenting with the modal sound for years before this, as well.

Great info here.

**Pacman** · #17 05-31-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westland

... what I should have said is that this is pretty much what Miles and his bands did, not that it's all that there is to improvisation (sorry). In my mind, modes are just another way of envisioning polychords ... you can either have a modal scale from which you select notes, or you can select notes from the root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, etc.

Well, Miles' band in the 'modal' period used this. But your explanation is a bit off. The key to the "Modal Sound" is that the modes are used almost exclusively - very little, if any, chromatisism is used. This opposed to bebop, where chord tones and chromatics provide the basis to the sound.

westland · #18 05-31-2005, 07:06 PM

OK ... I cede ... 50's/60's rather than 70's.

I really don't want to go down an unproductively picky path. And, sure, you can make the points about improvisational styles, but the original question was on modes where I contributed some history. Unless I am misinformed, the ... uh ... 50's ... modes were called modes, because of the analogy with church modes, and I believe it was the Berklee school faculty that helped popularize some more traditional terms from music theory when describing jazz (even if they didn't originate the terminology).

Help me out here

RiddimKing · #19 05-31-2005, 08:47 PM

"Just curious, why are you interested in modes of the pentatonic scale? What are you aiming to do with them?
Joe"

Exactly! What do you want to accomplish? Soloing over chords? Developing grooves or fills? As Carol Kaye emphasizes (many thanks to the TB member who posted that link--what a great resource!), music is about chords. The modes are great cause practicing them really drills the patterns of scales on the fretboard, but you have to understand chordal structure to really make music.

Richard Lindsey · #20 05-31-2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiddimKing

As Carol Kaye emphasizes (many thanks to the TB member who posted that link--what a great resource!), music is about chords. The modes are great cause practicing them really drills the patterns of scales on the fretboard, but you have to understand chordal structure to really make music.

Actually, I think this is highly questionable. There's a lot of music out there that's much more about melody than it is about chords (Indian ragas, for example), and a lot of music that's more about rhythm than either (West African drumming, for example).