Modes - WHY

[EADG mx]

I've been wondering this for a long time

and yes I know this has been done but I didn't find anything that useful in the search.

Everyone puts so much emphasis on how important it is to learn modes, so I printed them off and practiced them until I got a decent understand of how they're formed/how they sound etc

but now I don't understand what I'm supposed to do.

Can anyone give me some practical uses for modes from a bassist's perspective?

I'm asking specifically regarding the major scale and it's modes (keeping things simple for now) but anything else is fine

Please try to keep replies easy to understand

[Jazz Ad]

Modes are mostly useful when playing melodies. They're great tools to emphasize on a certain color.
They're of little use for a bass line most of the time.

[EADG mx]

Sorry, meant to post this in General Instruction

[Jeb]

I don't practice modes just to practice modes. In my case, they help me by adding structure to the line I'm playing through chord changes in a given key. So, unlike Jazz Ad, I think the modes give you the foundation for a bassline.

When I think in terms of the 7 modes, I think in terms of the I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii nomenclature of the key I'm playing. And the notes that are available in that mode (or chord).

Modes are one of those things that are so hard to explain, but rather simple in theory (and practice) once you understand them.

[CBAnaesthesia]

So you can learn F locrian and phrygian and pump out some evil sounding metal riffs.
..... Like me.

[HaVIC5]

A mode is a reflection of a different color produced by selecting a particular tonal center out of a group of pitches. D Dorian is the same group of pitches as F lydian, but because there is a D tonal center, it sounds like dorian, single every pitch is the scale is related to D in a different way than it would be related to F intervallically. "The Modes" that everybody tells you to learn are the modes of the major scale, which happen to have specific greek names. You can also have modes of the harmonic minor scale, melodic minor scale, pentatonic scales, diminished scale, augmented scale, harmonic major scale, etc, all of which reflect an entirely different color or "modality" based upon the intervallic relationships of all of the pitches to another one defined as the tonal center.

Why is this important? The vast majority of all of popular music is based upon the basic modalities of the major scale. Major (ionian modality) and minor (aeolian modalities) are two expressions of the same bunch of pitches based upon a different tonal center. Two other extremely popular ones are Dorian and Mixolydian modalities, which are characteristic of vamps and blues-type harmonic progression. For example, a typical dorian progression C-7 F7 | C-7 F7 vamped over and over (interestingly, F7 C-7 | F7 C-7 is a mixolydian progression, just by switching the harmonic rhythm). You hear this stuff all the time in popular music, and 9 times out of 10 a static harmony minor 7 chord will imply a Dorian modality.

As a bass player an understanding of modes and switching tonal centers in one of the coolest things you can do on bass. Simply by changing the bass note, you create an entirely different color for all of the vertical harmony and melody. For example, if you have a bread and butter C major chord, you could play a C root implying ionian and creating the ionian modality. Or you could experiment in creating different colors by playing an F in the bass, implying an F lydian sort of thing. Or A in the bass, making in A-7. Or D in the bass, creating a sus4-y dorian sound. Creating all of these new sonic colors just by playing different notes in the bass and therefore changing the tonal center of the moment is, in my humble opinion, the coolest thing you can do as a bassist. Understanding the concept of modality is helpful in learning how these things can work.

[uethanian]

why?

theres not a whole lot of use for them in the modern music scene. its much easier to think "d natural minor" than "c dorian." or at least thats how we've been taught.

but still, why? well, it descends from older music, from the good ol' days before equal temperament. before sharps or flats for that matter. back in the medieval (and even then there were exceptions). in western europe, music was diatonic, meaning that everything was on the "white keys." so, CDEFGABC, the natural major scale. instead of using notes- between-notes to change tone (what we do now), they just moved around the root. hence, the modes.

actually on a side note, the names we use now for modes were different than the "church modes" originally used. also, there were more categories in the "church modes," because of a particular mode's tendencies and rules. for instance, a mode may imply that you must resolve to the VI rather than to the I. the plain "ionian" we use so commonly today was almost never used historically, and its purpose was more theoretical than anything. so let me make clear that the modes we use today are a modern invention.

soooo eventually modulation came around and people started notating sharps and flats. the idea of modes stuck around, perhaps as a teaching method for some of the simpler scales (piano students to this day start out on only the white keys). and dont get me wrong, im not saying that modes are useless to the performer, and especially in the case of the improviser. but once you have a good knowledge of jazz theory and whatnot its easier to think about it in other terms.

[ahsbass6]

I teach students that modes are useful for learning to solo or construct bass lines.But they are not the be all and end all . when using modes it is important to anaylze the tensions in the chords/harmonic progression. To understand the "tensions" is each mode and to be able to transpose them is key..
Some colleges and early music theory texts teach that "C" is ionian, "D" is dorian etc. What they tend to leave out is that the Ionian is the same as a major scale, so you can have C ionian , Bflat ionian etc. An easy way to learn dorian is to take any major scale and lower the 3rd and 7th by one half step. in other words a Dmajor scale is D E Fsharp G A B Csharp D.. lower the F sharp by a half step to f natural and C sharp by half step to C natural it becomes DEF(natural) GABC(natural) D. You can use this "formula" and play dorian in any key. The Dorian works well soloing over any minor 7th chord - ex: dminor 7th -- the tensions in the chord are D F natural A C natural, you can add 9th, 11th and 13 over the chord and your solo will make sense using D dorian. The same is true of C dorian ... tensions in the C minor 7th chord C Eflat G B Flat... C dorian - C D Eflat G A Bflat C.
The Rufus Reid book "The Evolving Bassist" does a good job with the teaching of scales , modes etc because he gives you chord changes , you can see the tensions in the harmonic progression and why the scale or mode etc. will work . Hope this helps. Michael

[DocBop]

You say you practiced them till you know how they sound, well that should of been a start to knowing how to use them. Did you hear anything that might work in songs you play, some that wouldn't work??? Did you practice them against chords and hear which mode work on which chords. Did you try to compose with them? Try to transpose some solos that you knew were modal. Those are all common ways people use modes.

To me it sounds like you went and learned a bunch of fingering patterns and ran up and down them and said "where's the beef?" You have to put things into real world context and make music with them. Do the same things you did when you learned a Pentatonic scales try them in bass lines, solo's, to write with. Try to see where a mode was used in bass lines you already know. Only difference is you have a couple more notes in the scale.

Here your want an assignment, take a mode for a day. So after your regular practice routine (don't want to cheat that) spend the rest of a day dedicated to one mode. Lets take an easy one Mixolydian. Spend the day only playing Mixolydian, finding mixolydian in songs you already do, listen to it real good then go looking for mixolydian in other songs. Record some dominant chord rhythm and jam on mixolydian. Try write bass lines, and maybe a song in mixolydian. Force yourself to only play mixolydian the rest of that day. You will definitely know mixo' after that and see it in most of what you play. Then on another day do the same thing with Dorian.

[ahsbass6]

Left out the F in my C dorian -- C D Eflat F G A Bflat C Michael

[ahsbass6]

I did not see that anyone wrote that they practiced modes all day and asked where's the beef. If you look at certain periods of jazz for example Miles or Herbie Hancock... ( So What, Maiden Voyage etc.) there was modal playing. As I stated it is not the be all and end all. Michael As an aside if you do practice mixolydin -- play along with the tune 'All Blues" - Miles ... G Myxolydian to C Mixolydian.. etc.The tensions in the harmonic progression .

[PocketGroove82]

Modes are useful because they give theory snobs fitting names for their children.

[trb6pJM2]

Because they're the basis of all music... just a thought really.

btw. don't just try to barrel through the modes and learn them, that does just shy of nothing for you, when you practice, make them into music. Some of the best advice I've ever got, it's what Patitucci and Wooten preach.

[Foxworthy925]

Why?

Why not?

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

A mode is a reflection of a different color produced by selecting a particular tonal center out of a group of pitches. D Dorian is the same group of pitches as F lydian, but because there is a D tonal center, it sounds like dorian, single every pitch is the scale is related to D in a different way than it would be related to F intervallically. "The Modes" that everybody tells you to learn are the modes of the major scale, which happen to have specific greek names. You can also have modes of the harmonic minor scale, melodic minor scale, pentatonic scales, diminished scale, augmented scale, harmonic major scale, etc, all of which reflect an entirely different color or "modality" based upon the intervallic relationships of all of the pitches to another one defined as the tonal center.

Why is this important? The vast majority of all of popular music is based upon the basic modalities of the major scale. Major (ionian modality) and minor (aeolian modalities) are two expressions of the same bunch of pitches based upon a different tonal center. Two other extremely popular ones are Dorian and Mixolydian modalities, which are characteristic of vamps and blues-type harmonic progression. For example, a typical dorian progression C-7 F7 | C-7 F7 vamped over and over (interestingly, F7 C-7 | F7 C-7 is a mixolydian progression, just by switching the harmonic rhythm). You hear this stuff all the time in popular music, and 9 times out of 10 a static harmony minor 7 chord will imply a Dorian modality.

As a bass player an understanding of modes and switching tonal centers in one of the coolest things you can do on bass. Simply by changing the bass note, you create an entirely different color for all of the vertical harmony and melody. For example, if you have a bread and butter C major chord, you could play a C root implying ionian and creating the ionian modality. Or you could experiment in creating different colors by playing an F in the bass, implying an F lydian sort of thing. Or A in the bass, making in A-7. Or D in the bass, creating a sus4-y dorian sound. Creating all of these new sonic colors just by playing different notes in the bass and therefore changing the tonal center of the moment is, in my humble opinion, the coolest thing you can do as a bassist. Understanding the concept of modality is helpful in learning how these things can work.

All I get out of this is that I can use them to generate different colours, tonal centres, etc. in the music. I've got that, I just don't see what practical use they have I guess

By that, I mean that I don't see them used that much. The only modes I see used frequently are the Ionian and Aeolian, and the pentatonic major/minor. Other than that.. well I can think of a few instances (Dorian in "So What", Mixolydian in "A Show of Hands") but in the grand scheme of things I rarely see them at all.

That said if I can barely find use for the modes of the major scale, what the hell am I supposed to do with more obscure modes like those of dimished, harmonic minor, etc

maybe I just don't know enough theory or I'm not looking hard enough, but that's how I see it right now

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by DocBop

You say you practiced them till you know how they sound, well that should of been a start to knowing how to use them. Did you hear anything that might work in songs you play, some that wouldn't work??? Did you practice them against chords and hear which mode work on which chords. Did you try to compose with them? Try to transpose some solos that you knew were modal. Those are all common ways people use modes.

I know how the modes of the major scale sound and how to play them. I've touched on the harmonic minor and pentatonic as well.

Sure a few commonly used modes (ionian, aeolian, minor pentatonic) are very useful, but I was moreso asking about those I'm not familiar with.

I have played around with them a little in improv and composing but the reason I made this thread in the first place is because I was wondering how exactly I should go about this.

Originally Posted by DocBop

To me it sounds like you went and learned a bunch of fingering patterns and ran up and down them and said "where's the beef?" You have to put things into real world context and make music with them. Do the same things you did when you learned a Pentatonic scales try them in bass lines, solo's, to write with. Try to see where a mode was used in bass lines you already know. Only difference is you have a couple more notes in the scale.

That's what I'm asking, how do I put them in real world context and make music with them? I'm looking for more specific examples/methods

Here your want an assignment, take a mode for a day. So after your regular practice routine (don't want to cheat that) spend the rest of a day dedicated to one mode. Lets take an easy one Mixolydian. Spend the day only playing Mixolydian, finding mixolydian in songs you already do, listen to it real good then go looking for mixolydian in other songs. Record some dominant chord rhythm and jam on mixolydian. Try write bass lines, and maybe a song in mixolydian. Force yourself to only play mixolydian the rest of that day. You will definitely know mixo' after that and see it in most of what you play. Then on another day do the same thing with Dorian.

I could give this a shot, maybe not right now though

[mutedeity]

It's not the knowing of "the modes", that is important. It's understanding the function of modality that is useful.

[HaVIC5]

By that, I mean that I don't see them used that much. The only modes I see used frequently are the Ionian and Aeolian, and the pentatonic major/minor. Other than that.. well I can think of a few instances (Dorian in "So What", Mixolydian in "A Show of Hands") but in the grand scheme of things I rarely see them at all.

Rarely? Oh I doubt that. Lets go down some of Rolling Stones' top 500 and take note of modal harmony.

BTW, aeolian isn't used that often, in fact, a lot more rarely than dorian and mixo. Don't believe me? Find me music that uses a Vm7 or Vm chord versus a V7 or V chord in a minor key. I'll gladly give you 10 examples of the V7 for every Vm chord. Harmonic minor is used as a parent scale for harmony FAR more often.

(http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/500songs)

2. Satisfaction - Kieth Richards' signature guitar lick has a b7 on it, characteristic of a mixolydian modality.
5. Respect - Blues/mixolydian. The I is a dominant 7 chord without dominant function, and the major 3rd is predominant in the melody.
7. Johnny be Goode - Blues/mixolydian. Same as above.
9. Smells like teen spirit - Aeolian modal. The presence of the b6 and the lack of dominant root motion make it natural minor versus the infinitely more common harmonic and melodic minor key-related harmony.
11. My Generation - Mixolydian. The I-bVII-I-bVII cadence is HIGHLY typical of a mixolydian modality.
13. London Calling - Phyrgian. Or at least, the chorus is.

Need I continue? If you wanted examples of dorian, listen to anything Santana ever recorded (that stinking Im7-IV7 cadence will appear everywhere), Allman Brothers (Whipping Post, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, Les Brers in A minor), etc. No, So What isn't the only thing with a dorian modality.

All I get out of this is that I can use them to generate different colours, tonal centres, etc. in the music. I've got that, I just don't see what practical use they have I guess

That's what I'm asking, how do I put them in real world context and make music with them? I'm looking for more specific examples/methods

First, I already suggested a practical use - changing modalities by way of new bass notes and tonal centers. Should I explain that concept further?

Second, asking "how do I use modes?" or "what are the practical applications for the modes? is exactly the same as asking "how do I use the major scale?" or "what are the practical applications for the major scale?" It's extremely open ended, and doesn't really lead itself to as concise answer as you're looking for because its not really a concise question.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

It's not the knowing of "the modes", that is important. It's understanding the function of modality that is useful.

Exactly.

[fountain boy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpN9KM64UuU

When you have a complete undertanding of modes and can connect them.

I think he's playing through a few key centers as well.