Most effective way to fix my time problem?

Sean Baumann · #1 07-05-2006, 03:23 PM

I just bought a presonus firebox, which lets me record myself and replay the gory details. Well, I was under the impression that I was a passable bass player, but come to find out my time problems are worse than I thought.

I knew I naturally played on-top of the beat, but in reality, I really play ahead of the beat by a pretty decent margin. For some reason this feels natural to me and sounds fine when I am playing along. When I replay it though, it is crazy! I'm a groove killer! Nooooooooo..... This could explain why the tempo of my current band seems to steadily increase on more aggressive songs. I'm ahead, and the drummer is catching up, and it is probably a vicious cycle.

Some practice last night didn't yield much positive result, I'm just playing along with a programmed drum pattern trying to place the notes on the beat or slightly behind, but not much luck yet.

Any suggestions on how to get me where I need to be? Or, just more of the same?

christoph h. · #2 07-05-2006, 04:32 PM

first, "more of the same" is mostly good advice with regards to practice. consistency and repetition is simply key point to improval. also try and listen no so much to (or concentrate on) yourself when playing but more to the complete sound of what's happening. this isn't easy to learn but very helpful in avoiding the phenomenon of feeling very comfortable with your playing while your playing but not so much on hearing the recording.

other than that:

try and get the article "Metronome As A Guru" by Ed Friedland.
it was in bassplayer and i'm not sure if it is available on their website, but it is also printed in his book "The Working Bassist's Tookit".

also very, very helpful is transcribing (maybe especially simple, supportive) lines of great players and playing along to the record to "make it sound like there's only one player".

but you should also check your recording setup.
i remember one recording session where i just couldn't lock into the drum track (recorded earlier). it drove us crazy! i began to really doubt myself but it turned out to be a strange latency problem with the sound card.

Sean Baumann · #3 07-05-2006, 06:27 PM

heh good point, I'll make sure it is all syncronized correctly!

Though, I brought this up at my lesson today. My instructor had me clap some rhythms and he said I was pretty consistantly on-top of the beat (if not ahead).

Cristo · #4 07-05-2006, 07:35 PM

I want to work on this same problem myself.

A possible solution I've heard described (but not yet tried) is to practice with the old style metronome with the swinging pendulum. Not something that beeps, clicks, etc.

Because you can see the arm move, you can practice playing ahead, behind, whatever the beat.

At least that's the idea. Haven't done it myself so I can't say...

Sean Baumann · #5 07-05-2006, 08:01 PM

They make electronic ones that have a display that simulates the arm movement

Phil Smith · #6 07-05-2006, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cristo

I want to work on this same problem myself.

A possible solution I've heard described (but not yet tried) is to practice with the old style metronome with the swinging pendulum. Not something that beeps, clicks, etc.

Because you can see the arm move, you can practice playing ahead, behind, whatever the beat.

At least that's the idea. Haven't done it myself so I can't say...

If your playing requires responding to a visual time reference that would probably work, but if it doesn't, it's debateable as to it's effectiveness. You need to be able to hear and feel where your time is not see where your time is. IMO of course.

el_Kabong · #7 07-06-2006, 12:21 AM

Might sound too simple but do you tap your foot? Make sure your foot is in time with your metronome before you start to play. Stop and get it back in time as soon as you notice it drifting. When you get that rock steady, set your metronome to half tempo and play so that the clicks are on the 2&4 rather than the 1&3, making you responsible for the one.

BassChuck · #8 07-06-2006, 07:30 AM

+1 on the metronome idea. If you are working with a drum machine, or drum loops you might be confusing what sound is on the beat.

Since you can record yourself, try doing the same bass line, but at different tempos. Try a very simple line and do it at a very slow tempo. Instead of counting, 1, 2, 3, 4 count 1+, 2+, 3+ etc to feel the subdivision of the beat.

Developing good time is a life long project... you never stop working at it. Its always a good idea to get out the old metronome and do the drills to it, long after you've mastered the problem.

I would say that any bass player who isn't totally absorbed with the concept of time needs to trade down for a guitar.

Sean Baumann · #9 07-06-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by el_Kabong

Might sound too simple but do you tap your foot? Make sure your foot is in time with your metronome before you start to play. Stop and get it back in time as soon as you notice it drifting. When you get that rock steady, set your metronome to half tempo and play so that the clicks are on the 2&4 rather than the 1&3, making you responsible for the one.

Actually, I try to tap my foot, but I am almost too uncoordinated to do it. I know my foot is either nowhere on time or it is tapping the same rhythm I am playing (if it is simple enough). Now if I am not playing at all, of course I can tap my foot in time heheh.

Sean Baumann · #10 07-06-2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassChuck

+1 on the metronome idea. If you are working with a drum machine, or drum loops you might be confusing what sound is on the beat.

Since you can record yourself, try doing the same bass line, but at different tempos. Try a very simple line and do it at a very slow tempo. Instead of counting, 1, 2, 3, 4 count 1+, 2+, 3+ etc to feel the subdivision of the beat.

Developing good time is a life long project... you never stop working at it. Its always a good idea to get out the old metronome and do the drills to it, long after you've mastered the problem.

I would say that any bass player who isn't totally absorbed with the concept of time needs to trade down for a guitar.

Thanks for the input, I think you're right. It's going to take awhile

and it is going to come down to fixing my counting, my tapping (foot), and eventually my feel of beat placement. I rarely count in my head when I am playing, I rely on what I am feeling, which is obviously ahead of the beat right now. I just have never been coordinated enough to play, think about what I'm going to play next, tap my foot, and count at the same time heheh.... Now my band wants me to sing too, but that's another thread heheheh.

iplaybassguitar · #11 07-07-2006, 09:03 AM

a few timing suggestions...

play with a metronome(which was already stated but it worth repeating)

dance...it sounds stupid but if you can dance, maybe not well, but if you can move pretty well and keep in the groove and all that, it will help you

play drums

i picked up the drums(not literally) about a year and a half ago, not seriously but i bought a cheap drum set and jammed on drums with a few guys for a while...if you can play drums in a band successfully, without dropping the beat or changing tempos, it will greatly help your playing.

Sean Baumann · #12 07-07-2006, 10:48 AM

Funny, I own drums, but I never really tried to play them! I put some energy into playing guitar, but not much there either. Perhaps I would be better served by learning some drums.

I bought the set for rehearsals that used to be at my house, since then they have been in bags in the closet.

slybass3000 · #13 07-07-2006, 11:39 PM

I don't if it can make you feel better but, check out latency while recording. If you hear yourself a little late you'll have tendancy to play ahead of the beat. So,make sure it is the lowest as possible. And all the advices on the previous replies are good and make sure to practice slowly. There is nothing better then really controlling the timing of your notes with a click track.

SB

Fawkes007 · #14 07-07-2006, 11:48 PM

I cannot overstress the benefits of a metronome. If you have any ideas on doing a studio recording, you better have your time in order. Also, as a bass player, you need to be aware of the groove...are you on top of the behind? Behind it? Where is the drummer? Where is the guitar player? How do you fit everything together without overplaying and ?

Metronomes are your friend. Ed Friedland will show you the way.

**Freddels** · #15 07-08-2006, 08:36 AM

Metronome!! There are even some free ones online that run on your computer. Forget about placing the beat in front of, behind, next to, under, over the beat (for now).

Work on the beat. If you have rock solid time you will be a sought after bass player!

slackerdefined · #16 07-08-2006, 01:38 PM

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

Anyone wanna double check this? I don't have a real metronome and don't know if anything on the computer side can be affecting it's accuracy.

**Freddels** · #17 07-08-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slackerdefined

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

Anyone wanna double check this? I don't have a real metronome and don't know if anything on the computer side can be affecting it's accuracy.

That looks fine. My favorite is MetroGnome which for Macs even though it's no longer supported.

http://www.braxtech.com/metrognome/

SBassman · #18 07-14-2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Baumann

Actually, I try to tap my foot, but I am almost too uncoordinated to do it. I know my foot is either nowhere on time or it is tapping the same rhythm I am playing (if it is simple enough). Now if I am not playing at all, of course I can tap my foot in time heheh.

It doesn't mean you are too uncoordinated to do it. It means you have some work to do.

You Really want to be able to get to the point where you can tap a foot steady while playing your line. Working on this Will Definitely improve your time.

Sean Baumann · #19 07-14-2006, 09:25 PM

I agree. Actually even practicing clapping rhythms has helped me over the last week. Amazing what some work will do. Thanks for all the advice guys and gals.

SBassman · #20 07-14-2006, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Baumann

I agree. Actually even practicing clapping rhythms has helped me over the last week. Amazing what some work will do. Thanks for all the advice guys and gals.

Great to hear. Keep going. A little a day, and this stuff will definitely get better.

I liked what someone said in a previous post - it's a lifelong journey.

Even after you get a basic sense of good time, it can slip a little depending on your experiences. This is something I recently discussed with others in another forum. The fact that playing with a drummer with bad time can actually affect your time, too, and that, you want to constantly go back to the metronome/drum machine well to get tuned back up.