Music Theory Chain

[santucci218]

My request of having a sticky for music theory questions has failed so i figured we will just try to keep this one on top of the page. I'll post the first question and the person below me will answer it and ask another question and on and on.

Give me the notes of a C Melodic minor scale ascending and descending.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by santucci218

My request of having a sticky for music theory questions has failed so i figured we will just try to keep this one on top of the page. I'll post the first question and the person below me will answer it and ask another question and on and on.

Give me the notes of a C Melodic minor scale ascending and descending.

Maybe their trying to get you to start thinking for yourself. Try working through this stuff before posting. Post questions showing where you tried and got stuck, not just do my homework for me.

[Aged_Clayman]

I think it`s C D D# F G G# B C. And the descending will be the reverse of this , right?

My quesion is, iirc, most of the harmonics fit into the D-major scale. Why did this happen? What if I want to write a piece in, say, B?

[hunta]

Originally Posted by Aged_Clayman

I think it`s C D D# F G G# B C. And the descending will be the reverse of this , right?

My quesion is, iirc, most of the harmonics fit into the D-major scale. Why did this happen? What if I want to write a piece in, say, B?

Not exactly

C Melodic Minor
ascending: C D Eb F G A B C
descending: C Bb Ab G F Eb D C

Melodic minor ascending is like a natural minor scale with a raised 6th and 7th, and descending is like a normal natural minor scale. Note that when spelling scales you want to use all the letters, ie C D Eb, not C D D#. The notes sound the same but technicially it's not correct.

I'll let someone else tackle the harmonics question

[Aged_Clayman]

Melodic minor ascending is like a natural minor scale with a raised 6th and 7th, and descending is like a normal natural minor scale

You mean like the descending scale is started at the same note (C - 3rd fret on the A string, for example) with same same intervals but in reverse? So if it`s "tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone-and-a-half, semitone" for ascending it would be "semition, tone-and-a-half etc" in descending?

[hunta]

Originally Posted by Aged_Clayman

You mean like the descending scale is started at the same note (C - 3rd fret on the A string, for example) with same same intervals but in reverse? So if it`s "tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone-and-a-half, semitone" for ascending it would be "semition, tone-and-a-half etc" in descending?

What you're describing is the harmonic minor scale, which is natural minor with a raised 7th. Harmonic minor, like natural minor, is a symmetrical scale, meaning that you play the same notes going up as you do going down. Melodic minor goes up one way and comes down another. It's a classical thing, gotta love Bach and Beethoven (aka Batch and Beat Oven! That's a kickin glissando!).

[santucci218]

hmm as for the question about the harmonics...im not so sure, thats a tough one...as for writing with harmonics in a different scale, ill say use false harmonics like Mr. Pastorius.

[bearfoot]

They probably don't do a Theory Section because it is so widely available elsewhere. You can find all this stuff all over the net. Wiki has a pretty good page on the minor scales.
Hunta has the spelling right ~ you don't want to say C, D, D# for various reasons, the main of which is that the key sig for C-minor is 3 flats.
Also, outside of fretted/keyed instruments, there is a notable difference between D# and Eb.

[jaebee]

Originally Posted by hunta

Harmonic minor, like natural minor, is a symmetrical scale, meaning that you play the same notes going up as you do going down.

dont mean to be nitpicky, but you are using the word symmetrical incorrectly here. a symmetrical scale is a whole tone, or dimminished scale, one where the intervals are 'regular' or symmetrical

also, i would suggest learning as much about major scale theory before going into melodic and harmonic minor, as they are more complicated and more confusing, and there is enough to learn already.

also, if you want notes in a scale, there are plenty of web resources for that, how about more indepth questions like "when playing the VII as a secondary dominant, do i have to go through the cycle of fifths until i resolve on the I?"

[Aged_Clayman]

when playing the VII as a secondary dominant, do i have to go through the cycle of fifths until i resolve on the I?"

And really, do I have to?

[Hawaii Islander]

This actually might have been a pretty fun and interesting thread. Maybe it should have been titled, "The Music Theory Chain Game". Not meant for the too serious at heart.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by santucci218

Give me the notes of a C Melodic minor scale ascending and descending.

I pretty much agree with Doc Bop on this one... But I'll help you answer your own question by telling you why we have the melodic minor scale...

Natural minor is the same as the major scale, but with the third, sixth and seventh flattened.

Strict use of natural minor harmony gives an unconvincing v-i cadence due to the lack of the tritone in the minor v7 chord and the lack of a leading tone.

In major harmony, the V7 chord has a dissonant tritone interval between the 3rd and 7th that begs for resolution. The semitone step between the 3rd of the V7 chord and the root of the I chord gives us pretty much as satisfying a resolution that exists in music.

To duplicate that, the minor 7th of the natural minor is sharpened to give a major 7th, which turns the v7 chord into a V7 chord. We call this modification of the natural minor the "Harmonic Minor"

The Harmonic Minor is the same as the major scale, but with a flattened third and flattened 6th.

The harmonic minor scale has one feature that is frequently considered unpleasant... the tone and a half step between the minor 6th and the major 7th. That jump can seem abrupt and unmelodic. To sweeten the scale melodically, the minor sixth of the harmonic minor is sharpened, making it a major sixth. We call this modification of the harmonic minor the "Melodic Minor".

The melodic minor (ascending) scale is the same as the major scale, but it has a flattened third.

As the major seventh is used primarily for a V7-I cadence, where you're stepping up a semitone from the third of the V7to the root of the I chord, it's not really necessary for the descending scale, so we revert to the natural minor.

[Zebra]

Originally Posted by hunta

Not exactly

C Melodic Minor
ascending: C D Eb F G A B C
descending: C Bb Ab G F Eb D C

Melodic minor ascending is like a natural minor scale with a raised 6th and 7th, and descending is like a normal natural minor scale. Note that when spelling scales you want to use all the letters, ie C D Eb, not C D D#. The notes sound the same but technicially it's not correct.

It all depends on the context, really. For classical use, yes, that is how the melodic minor scale works. This idea is foreign to jazz musicians, though, who play it the same way ascending and descending.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Zebra

It all depends on the context, really. For classical use, yes, that is how the melodic minor scale works. This idea is foreign to jazz musicians, though, who play it the same way ascending and descending.

The idea isn't foriegn it is intentional. That is why some hang the label "Jazz Minor" or Melodic Jazz Minor" so they know they mean melodic minor ascending both up and down.

Why I can't say, but speculate that since Jazz players use a modes of the Melodic Minor it would make sense to go up annd down the same way. If anyone knows the history of the reason I'd dig reading it.

[HaVIC5]

It all depends on the context, really. For classical use, yes, that is how the melodic minor scale works. This idea is foreign to jazz musicians, though, who play it the same way ascending and descending.

Well, heres the thing. Classical use typically has the natural 6 and natural 7 on the way up and the b6 and b7 on the way down, but there are a bunch of examples where that isn't the case. People are told to practice the two different forms of the scale without any regard as to why there are two forms. Here's my best shot at explaining.

In order to have a dominant relationship in a minor key setting, you have to have the leading tone natural 7 to have a V chord which will procede in a dominant cadence to the I minor chord. This alteration will give you the harmonic minor scale, which is used for harmonic purposes - the harmonic relationship of the V to the I. When you alter the 7th, though, you create what was considered a very awkward melodic interval - the augmented 2nd - between the b6 and the natural 7. This was considered very difficult to sing, and while you'll see it sometimes in classical instrumental music, you won't see it at all in vocal music. In order to smooth this out, the natural 6 came into being so to make a smooth, step-wise approach to the tonic. Once the melody reached the tonic, however, there wasn't any more harmonic reason for the alteration of the 7th and the 6th, and so on the way down, the natural version of the scale was used because it sounded far more consonant against the tonic than the version of the scale with the 7th and 6th. Usually in a dominant cadence the melody would ascend, which is the reason for the ascending 6th and 7th, but when it would descend, you could also use the natural 6th and 7th because they were 1) more consonant against a V7 chord than the other version and 2) they have a much smoother melodic contour than if you had the b6 and natural 7 together. The opposite held true (although more rarely) when you ascended on the tonic; you could use the minor 6 and the minor 7.

To respond to DocBop, when you fast forward 200-300 years later, theories of consonance and dissonance have been completely redefined, so you can have a natural 6 and a natural 7 over the tonic and have them be acceptable dissonance. The need for a smooth melodic contour and harmonic natural seventh (for dominant-tonic relationship) still exists though in contemporary music and jazz, so the melodic minor was simplified to only include the ascending version.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Well, heres the thing. Classical use typically has the natural 6 and natural 7 on the way up and the b6 and b7 on the way down, but there are a bunch of examples where that isn't the case. People are told to practice the two different forms of the scale without any regard as to why there are two forms. Here's my best shot at explaining.

In order to have a dominant relationship in a minor key setting, you have to have the leading tone natural 7 to have a V chord which will procede in a dominant cadence to the I minor chord. This alteration will give you the harmonic minor scale, which is used for harmonic purposes - the harmonic relationship of the V to the I. When you alter the 7th, though, you create what was considered a very awkward melodic interval - the augmented 2nd - between the b6 and the natural 7. This was considered very difficult to sing, and while you'll see it sometimes in classical instrumental music, you won't see it at all in vocal music. In order to smooth this out, the natural 6 came into being so to make a smooth, step-wise approach to the tonic. Once the melody reached the tonic, however, there wasn't any more harmonic reason for the alteration of the 7th and the 6th, and so on the way down, the natural version of the scale was used because it sounded far more consonant against the tonic than the version of the scale with the 7th and 6th. Usually in a dominant cadence the melody would ascend, which is the reason for the ascending 6th and 7th, but when it would descend, you could also use the natural 6th and 7th because they were 1) more consonant against a V7 chord than the other version and 2) they have a much smoother melodic contour than if you had the b6 and natural 7 together. The opposite held true (although more rarely) when you ascended on the tonic; you could use the minor 6 and the minor 7.

I wonder why nobody mentioned this earlier?

[Ben Rolston]

^

[santucci218]

argh, back to the point of this thread!!!


hmm...what are the names of all the scale degrees?

[Mark Wilson]

Originally Posted by santucci218

argh, back to the point of this thread!!!


hmm...what are the names of all the scale degrees?

Tonic, Supertonic, Mediant, Subdominant, Dominant, Submediant, Leading Tone.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Well, heres the thing. Classical use typically has the natural 6 and natural 7 on the way up and the b6 and b7 on the way down, but there are a bunch of examples where that isn't the case. People are told to practice the two different forms of the scale without any regard as to why there are two forms. Here's my best shot at explaining.

In order to have a dominant relationship in a minor key setting, you have to have the leading tone natural 7 to have a V chord which will procede in a dominant cadence to the I minor chord. This alteration will give you the harmonic minor scale, which is used for harmonic purposes - the harmonic relationship of the V to the I. When you alter the 7th, though, you create what was considered a very awkward melodic interval - the augmented 2nd - between the b6 and the natural 7. This was considered very difficult to sing, and while you'll see it sometimes in classical instrumental music, you won't see it at all in vocal music. In order to smooth this out, the natural 6 came into being so to make a smooth, step-wise approach to the tonic. Once the melody reached the tonic, however, there wasn't any more harmonic reason for the alteration of the 7th and the 6th, and so on the way down, the natural version of the scale was used because it sounded far more consonant against the tonic than the version of the scale with the 7th and 6th. Usually in a dominant cadence the melody would ascend, which is the reason for the ascending 6th and 7th, but when it would descend, you could also use the natural 6th and 7th because they were 1) more consonant against a V7 chord than the other version and 2) they have a much smoother melodic contour than if you had the b6 and natural 7 together. The opposite held true (although more rarely) when you ascended on the tonic; you could use the minor 6 and the minor 7.

To respond to DocBop, when you fast forward 200-300 years later, theories of consonance and dissonance have been completely redefined, so you can have a natural 6 and a natural 7 over the tonic and have them be acceptable dissonance. The need for a smooth melodic contour and harmonic natural seventh (for dominant-tonic relationship) still exists though in contemporary music and jazz, so the melodic minor was simplified to only include the ascending version.

I like my Jazz school short version. MMi we ascend and descend the same way. We use a a couple modes of MMi. We mash up the three minor scales as necessary. The default Minor II-V-I is IImi7b5, V7 Alt, Imi7. Now lets play some Brazilian music and get it under our fingers and in our ears.

Almost forgot the Mi maj7 chord is what soap operas play to leave you hanging and go to commercial, sometimes they will add a 9 after the chord when they want to sell you soap.