Musicians really worth studying for musical development

[Funkturnal]

I was wondering which musicians people have studied or analyzed that have really contributed to your musical development. Of course, the easy thing to say would be "everyone" or "everyone you like".

But I was specifically wondering which players' music/improvisation do you think contains mainly "important" (or for lack of better term, "logical") musical information (musicality backed up by solid theory rather than flashy licks), and hence, really worthwhile to study?

For me, Charlie Parker comes to mind. I consider him to be the real deal - no explanation really necessary.

I've also thought that Joe Pass is someone worth studying. I've heard his musicality referenced as "blue-collar" (in a good way) somewhere, I guess in the sense that his playing is prety "no-nonsense" (even thought he had all kinds of chops as well). I haven't really studied him, but I have one of his guitar books somewhere that I need to dig up.

And actually, learning a few Bach pieces has surprisingly helped me with my jazz. (Or maybe it has helped me with my overall musicality, which in turns helps me with jazz.)

Looking forward to any more suggestions that I can take to the woodshed!

[Billnc]

Pat Martino, he plays through changes, but the conversion to minor is interesting (he's taken that concept very far) and highly useful.

You can actually nail it pretty well by taking all or even just a few of the minor #4 exercises in Chord Studies for Electric Bass and applying his conversions to chord changes.

Cmaj7 play A minor or E minor
Cmi7 play Cmi7
C7 play Gmi7
Cmi7b5 play Ebmi7 (in a minor ii V you'd stay on the minor line though the V in this case F7+9)

These are lines based on minor chords with approaches to the chord tones and chromaticism, not scale running. You can back cycle and do diminshed patterns with this also.

[Funkturnal]

Originally Posted by Billnc

Pat Martino, he plays through changes, but the conversion to minor is interesting (he's taken that concept very far) and highly useful.

You can actually nail it pretty well by taking all or even just a few of the minor #4 exercises in Chord Studies for Electric Bass and applying his conversions to chord changes.

Cmaj7 play A minor or E minor
Cmi7 play Cmi7
C7 play Gmi7
Cmi7b5 play Ebmi7 (in a minor ii V you'd stay on the minor line though the V in this case F7+9)

These are lines based on minor chords with approaches to the chord tones and chromaticism, not scale running. You can back cycle and do diminshed patterns with this also.

Thanks for the breakdown! Pat Martino is one of my favorite players. When you break it down, it's pretty much in line with Carol Kaye's method. Perhaps the way Pat Martino looks at it (with everything converted to minor) may be different, but it seems spot on with her extended triad methodology. Good stuff!

[JTE]

Add Larry Carlton to the list.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Funkturnal

Thanks for the breakdown! Pat Martino is one of my favorite players. When you break it down, it's pretty much in line with Carol Kaye's method. Perhaps the way Pat Martino looks at it (with everything converted to minor) may be different, but it seems spot on with her extended triad methodology. Good stuff!

It is, Martino studied with Sandole, I've studied with a few of Sandoles students and a few hour private lesson with Pat himself. All based on chordal approaches to melody. No matter how linear a line may be everything is targeting chord tones.

[Funkturnal]

Originally Posted by Billnc

It is, Martino studied with Sandole, I've studied with a few of Sandoles students and a few hour private lesson with Pat himself. All based on chordal approaches to melody. No matter how linear a line may be everything is targeting chord tones.

OMG, you had the chance to take private lessons with Pat Martino??!! Was it a guitar lesson or bass lesson? I guess it didn't really matter because music, no doubt, must have been the subject at hand.

For me to just say he's one of my "favorites" is an understatement. He's a musical legend who continues to push the limits and boundaries to this day. He is one of those musicians that I "revere".

The chordal approach definitely resonates with me. I could definitely hear it in Pat Martino's playing, but it's great insight to know that he thinks way.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Funkturnal

OMG, you had the chance to take private lessons with Pat Martino??!! Was it a guitar lesson or bass lesson? I guess it didn't really matter because music, no doubt, must have been the subject at hand.

For me to just say he's one of my "favorites" is an understatement. He's a musical legend who continues to push the limits and boundaries to this day. He is one of those musicians that I "revere".

The chordal approach definitely resonates with me. I could definitely hear it in Pat Martino's playing, but it's great insight to know that he thinks way.

This was around 1988 and he was on gigging hiatus again (The Return was a bit premature) if memory serves. The lesson was a guitar lesson and very similar to his video, but of course we had back and forth discussions.

I took up bass a couple years later. I've attempted to keep both instruments seperate in my head. Last year I took a bass lesson from the local first call upright player. We were talking about soloing etc. When I mentioned NOT using Martino's and others ideas (don't wanna sound like a frustrated guitar player do we?) He corrected me. Jeff Berlin uses Martino to teach bass soloing himself.

This all put things together for me. When I first took guitar lessons as a kid I didn't study guitar, I studied music and a guitar happened to be in my hands. When I took up bass I studied bass, something is wrong with that picture! Thankfully I've got so much stuff to fall back on. Now I'm studying music with a bass in my hands.

[Earthday]

Geddy Lee - groove
Roger Waters - Effective simplicity
Geezer Butler - Knowing when to emphasize the melody and when to build a separate backbone.
John Myung - Complexity without sounding too busy
Tony Levin - He's the most sought after studio bassist in the world, and there's plenty of reasons why.

[flareaga]

The bass players that could be listed really depend on what you are playing--

but then again I assume a lot of people here dabble in everything.

[mambo4]

Jamerson is the one I have analyzed the most.
But I am not sure how much of what you call "logical" musical information there is.
you certainly won't find him being a slave to modes or anything. To me, his stuff is an object lesson in what you can get away with that lies outside of the "rules" of theory. Always serving the harmony, always serving the rhythm, but beyond that his note choices were more feel than theory, I think...

[IvanMike]

the entire kind of blue album. Miles baby, miles.

[sir juice]

the beatles

[lady_bassist]

A great thread. However, I think it's really difficult to name THE artist, since most of us operate in different genres, so it's hard to be really general (though it wouldn't hurt to look outside your musical world too!). I have always tried to study from the best people from the given genre - when I started playing fusion jazz, I went out and bought the best fusion CDs I could find (aided by people who were into this kind of music for a looong time), so I found people like Mike Mainieri and Steve Swallow the most inspiring. When I got my 6-string, I studied Alain Caron's playing. It's easier if you narrow it down a little.
I would also say that for solos, sax players are great for studying (Funkturnal, you are very right with Parker!). For jazz, I go for the real greats, regardless of instrument.

[CDweller]

You can listen to killer bass players, and get blown away with their technique and harmonic knowledge. You can also expand your horizons by listening to guys on on different instruments, and try to bring that to bass. Now you've got the opportunity to innovate. Keith Jarrett is worth listening to, I would think. Charlie Parker- naturally. Miles? Of course. On bass, be sure to listen to Jaco, and see if you can't hear the Parker influence. If you want to get really, really humbled, listen to Barbare Dennerlein (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ut7...eature=related) on B3. She does more with her foot than any number of bass players using two hands.

[Hoover]

For me the musical concepts of "depth" and "development" and "substance" almost always point towards a very specific awareness of Context -- meaning that in the best instances musical development is demonstrably related both syntactically and (more importantly) audibly to the song being performed. For that reason, the jazz musicians I find most rewarding include (but are not limited to) Tim Berne and Ornette Coleman. Their use of motific development as a basis for improvisation always seems to keep the flavor of each individual composition focussed and uniquely identifiable. Probably shouldn't come as a surprise that both players are composers, and usually play their own compositions; it's a very "composerly" way to improvise imho.

Igor Stravinsky's compositions achieve a similar focus in terms of justifying their depth/development/substance, and I have to say that studying his music has probably had more of a beneficial effect on my own development than any jazz musicans I've studied. (Not that I'm making a value judgement...)

[Richard Lindsey]

Wayne Shorter has always been an important musician for me. Jim Hall too, for different but somewhat related reasons.

[Whacked]

I like Earthday's list

Geezer still amazes me

And i'd like to add another:
John Paul Jones. Outstanding musician no matter if its bass, keys, mandolin, songwriting, the list just goes on....