My music theory aspirations.

[SpawnofHastur]

Hey, folks.

I'm attempting to teach myself music theory at the moment. This is difficult. As such, I would like to ask for your thoughts on my current approach.

I'm using an open source program called Anki that automates the spaced repetition method of learning- you program in some flash cards, and it quizzes you on them in increasingly larger periods, because it's been found that that is the most effective means of learning to remember something properly.

My current deck of cards has 157 cards, because what I'm focusing on (at first) are the intervals. 13 cards asking me how many semitones are in a given interval (starting at a unison because I'm anal retentive and moving up to octave). From there, there are 144 cards in the format of: "Assuming that X is the lower note, what is the interval between X and Y".

Once I've got the intervals under my belt, being able to instantaneously know what the interval between two notes (I'm hoping that the previously mentioned format will also allow me to say "Oh, a major sixth above X is Y" with accuracy, too) I'm going to be working on the format of the chords and so on- the intervals in a given scale, the sharps and flats in a given key...hell, I'll even end up putting in "Where are all the instances of an X on the fretboard of a bass guitar".

So, yeah. That's my current music theory learning-program-thing. What are your thoughts?

[Vendele197]

First and foremost, that's pretty intense. That being said, intense is good. I took an AP Music Theory class my senior year in high school and another theory class my first semester of college and we did a lot of similar interval work.

Western music is all based on scales, starting with the chromatic scale, so learning your intervals is key. Once you make it through your interval exercises, I would suggest working on a few other things:

-Modes
-Diatonic Chords (understand why the ii (2) chord is minor in a major key, why the VI chord is major in a minor key, etc.)
-Intervals below

That last one is quite a bit trickier than intervals above in my opinion, but is very important. An example, in case you're not familiar with the concept: a 5th above is a 4th below, a 6th above is a 3rd below, etc. Remember the rule of 9.

Hope that helps.

[SpawnofHastur]

Yeah, I'm gonna add in the inversions too, once I've got what I've got down-pat.

I've got an okay understanding of music theory already, but I want to deepen to the point that if someone asks me for all the notes of a given chord or scale, I can see all of the notes on the fretboard. Same with intervals- if someone asks me, I want to be able to immediately answer.

[Billnc]

Are you singing the intervals too? That's key, they represent sounds.

[SpawnofHastur]

Not at the moment- I'd rather get the names off them down first before moving into singing them.

I'm really intent on, once I've got these down, playing intervals over chords, to firmly entrench how certain intervals sound over the chords.

I'm likely to do some other ear training, too- most of my playing these days consists of picking my bass up out of it's corner and fiddling around on it, trying to get a riff or a song I've heard before out of it.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

Hey, folks. I'm attempting to teach myself music theory at the moment. This is difficult. As such, I would like to ask for your thoughts on my current approach.

Ditto intense. Sounds like a good ear training course, but, is it helping with the basic concepts of music?

You might find this helpful.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11975

Good luck.

[SpawnofHastur]

Tausend dank, my friend.

There is definitely some useful stuff in that there link- what caught me was their thing about putting chords to a melody- as I'm interested in figuring out more jazzy stuff, that will really be helpful.

As for the basic form of music? I'm going to constantly be adding to this to further broaden my musical knowledge- albeit not just yet; I'm not, at the moment, particularly confident with my ability to keep up with a rapidly increasing list of cards.

Thank you again!

(As a note, I'm also reading a book on composition by Schoenberg, who was mostly self-taught. It's very enlightening)

[NickyBass]

Don't forget that the purpase of theory is application--not just knowledge. Memorizing and recognizing intervals is fine, but it will benefit you greatly if you know how each interval sounds. If you go ahead with your approach, I would suggest playing the notes on a piano or your bass to hear what they sound like.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

Not at the moment- I'd rather get the names off them down first before moving into singing them.

I'm really intent on, once I've got these down, playing intervals over chords, to firmly entrench how certain intervals sound over the chords.

I'm likely to do some other ear training, too- most of my playing these days consists of picking my bass up out of it's corner and fiddling around on it, trying to get a riff or a song I've heard before out of it.

First, IMHO you have made a significant error in your approach.

I think it is good that you want to learn to identify intervals, and the number of semi-tones in each interval is important, as are their names, but these need to be learned in a meaningful musical context.

One could argue what that context might be, but at the very very minimum, IME you need to use all of these three when practicing IDENTIFYING intervals:

1) Identification by ear
2) Identification my touch/sight (on your instrument)
3) Identification by notation

There are Java applications that will tirelessly present these, but that is not really enough. IMO, you need a teacher who can check to be sure you are on track. Don't forget you need also to be able to instantly produce (vocally, instrumentally, and written) a given interval as well. Identification alone is not really that useful.

Secondly, there is no such thing as an "interval over a chord." A pitch is simply either a member of the chord or a non-chord tone, and in either case, the pitch in question is a given interval from each chord tone or non-chord tone. The sound of a given pitch as the top voice in a triad or 7th chord is a good thing to identify, but how do you want to think of it? Why not write, sing or play the interval between a given note and all other simultaneous pitches. Hint: start with two notes at once, let the four voice dictation wait a while. Also, to concentrate on a vertical structure--a chord--is to ignore what is arguably more important, especially for bassists, the linear domain. This brings up melodic dictation/transcription. You can practice that without knowing a single interval name. How? Pickup up your bass and figure out a bass part by ear. Do a lot of this.

Which leads to my last comment. Your bass should not be in the corner so much. The act of figuring out bass lines, melodies, etc., by ear on your instrument is much much more important than drilling interval name identification. Music theory functions to help us explain and understand what we hear. It does not replace hearing and it is not music.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

Tausend dank, my friend.

There is definitely some useful stuff in that there link- what caught me was their thing about putting chords to a melody- as I'm interested in figuring out more jazzy stuff, that will really be helpful.

As for the basic form of music? I'm going to constantly be adding to this to further broaden my musical knowledge- albeit not just yet; I'm not, at the moment, particularly confident with my ability to keep up with a rapidly increasing list of cards.

Thank you again!

(As a note, I'm also reading a book on composition by Schoenberg, who was mostly self-taught. It's very enlightening)

OK, but AS wasn't really "mostly self-taught," though it is true he did not attend conservatorium or Uni, as he was too poor and was Jewish, so his opportunities had to be "hausgemacht." In fact, Schoenberg took cello lessons for many years as a boy and adolescent, played chamber music constantly as a young man with his friends, and was a pupil of Alexander von Zemlinsky. Schoenberg's music and writings are quite familiar to me. Which book are you reading? Do you play the piano?

[totallybacan]

Spawn: One trick which really helped me more than finding the exact number of semi-tones was figuring out how it related to the scale. I started by memorizing (by sheer accident) all the major and minor triads. From there, the note that you want will never be more than a whole step away from one of the triad notes. So if you remember the major scale pattern WWHWWWH and minor pattern WHWWHWW you shouldn't have any trouble, even for accidentals.

As was mentioned above, the rule of 9 is key. 2 is 7, 3 is 6, 4 is 5, etc. and at the same time, in an inversion Major switches to Minor, minor to major, augmented/diminished to diminished/augmented, and perfect stays the same.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by SpawnofHastur

13 cards asking me how many semitones are in a given interval (starting at a unison because I'm anal retentive and moving up to octave).

It is useful to know the semitones in an interval for the sake of being able to figure out their fingerboard shape and how they would be notated, but:

you need to use all of these three when practicing IDENTIFYING intervals:
1) Identification by ear
2) Identification my touch/sight (on your instrument)
3) Identification by notation

+1 to This. Drill on the above, not on the number of semitones.

I can find the shape on the neck, sing it, and identify it on the staff much faster I can deduce the number of semitones in an interval. Those things are more practically useful to have memorized

[SpawnofHastur]

So many comments! Thank you all!

My bass is not in the corner so much, to be honest. I probably practice more than an hour a day, albeit broken up into numerous little chunks.

I have an open-licence solfege system here on my computer which I will be thus making use of, on your advice.

The bass guitar, to steal a quote from Pat Martino, is my favourite toy. While I may not play it and practice it in one big chunk, I personally think that my numerous times throughout the day approach is better, simply because I never think of it as a chore.

[Stumbo]

You may want to check out the links in my sig. below for some info that may help you along the way.

Good luck.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

First, IMHO you have made a significant error in your approach.

I think it is good that you want to learn to identify intervals, and the number of semi-tones in each interval is important, as are their names, but these need to be learned in a meaningful musical context.

One could argue what that context might be, but at the very very minimum, IME you need to use all of these three when practicing IDENTIFYING intervals:

1) Identification by ear
2) Identification my touch/sight (on your instrument)
3) Identification by notation

There are Java applications that will tirelessly present these, but that is not really enough. IMO, you need a teacher who can check to be sure you are on track. Don't forget you need also to be able to instantly produce (vocally, instrumentally, and written) a given interval as well. Identification alone is not really that useful.

Secondly, there is no such thing as an "interval over a chord." A pitch is simply either a member of the chord or a non-chord tone, and in either case, the pitch in question is a given interval from each chord tone or non-chord tone. The sound of a given pitch as the top voice in a triad or 7th chord is a good thing to identify, but how do you want to think of it? Why not write, sing or play the interval between a given note and all other simultaneous pitches. Hint: start with two notes at once, let the four voice dictation wait a while. Also, to concentrate on a vertical structure--a chord--is to ignore what is arguably more important, especially for bassists, the linear domain. This brings up melodic dictation/transcription. You can practice that without knowing a single interval name. How? Pickup up your bass and figure out a bass part by ear. Do a lot of this.

Which leads to my last comment. Your bass should not be in the corner so much. The act of figuring out bass lines, melodies, etc., by ear on your instrument is much much more important than drilling interval name identification. Music theory functions to help us explain and understand what we hear. It does not replace hearing and it is not music.

This.

[1dgbass]

studybass.com