Mystery of jazz bass playing - is this just me?

Hi everyone

Maybe this is a question that only really experienced jazz players will be able to answer.

I've been playing bass for around 10-11 years, and I've learned to play a broad range of styles, reggae, blues, rock, afrobeat, etc... Even experimental weird stuff like with Ashowka.

Anyway I've always had a bit of a block when it comes to jazz. I was talking to a friend who is a drummer (very good jazz drummer) who couldn't understand my problem, which made me think - is this all in my head?

My problem is that when I sit down with a jazz book, it's all rules like - when this chord (etc) play this note - 'theory' of how to construct walking lines etc.

Now the thing is that when I hear a bass player who's following the rules like this, I find it extremely boring - almost nauseating. To me it's not jazz.

When I put on my jazz records the walking lines always seem to be COMPLETELY out-there. That seems much more like it. I don't know how they're doing it, but it doens't sound like they're even following the chords, but I know they're aware of them.

Anyway my point is - I've been feeling like this is something that I just can't 'hear' in my head, so I might never be able to play jazz properly.

Does anyone know what sort of thing I'm talking about and how to approach it. For examples, Rip Rig and Panic by Roland Kirk, Live at Birdland by John Coltrane many others.

[Pacman]

If you can't hear it in your head, I have to ask how much you listen to it? If you're not listening to jazz, it's going to be along time before you can play it...

[JazznFunk]

The theory is indeed just that.... theory! The concepts you're studying are textbook concepts and ideas to lay the groundwork for the basslines you're hearing. The time period for the Coltrane and Roland Kirk records you mentioned falls in the 'free jazz' era when harmonic and tonal boundaries were very loose, so in some ways what you're hearing is a mixture of tonal focus and atonal exploration. Definitely not good examples of true, well-constructed, harmonically propulsive basslines, at least in the sense of 'traditional jazz'. If you listen to early Miles Davis quintet records with Paul Chambers on bass, or Sonny Rollins, or Ray Brown, you'll get a better idea of how walking bass lines are very logical, outline the chord, yet have that something 'extra' that makes them totally non-textbook. A lot of that extra color comes from the addition of passing tones, non-chord tones, and all-out chord substitutions that come as second nature after you've been playing the music long enough.

Now, to backtrack, if the free jazz thing is what you're really wanting to do, you really have to become adept at hearing what your fellow players are doing and pick appropriate chords/lines to imply right on the spot. Free jazz ain't totally free... there's still theory involved to a great degree.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Pacman

If you can't hear it in your head, I have to ask how much you listen to it? If you're not listening to jazz, it's going to be along time before you can play it...

This is the most truthful statement possible when it comes to jazz. It is impossible to play if you don't listen to the language. Also unless your listening to free jazz the bassists know exactly what they are doing, but they've practiced enough and played enough times that they realize they need to spic up lines and they do. Learning to walk really well is a very hard thing to do.

[Jason Hollar]

Yup -- I agree with these guys.

Start with an earlier more "straight-ahead" style of jazz.

Transcribe cool walking lines & solos that perk up your ears.

Study the chords from the Real Book and learn the chord/scale relationships.

Pay attention to the altered dominant sounds like 7b9 and 7#9 and try to figure out what's going on with those. If you study the diminished, whole-tone and interestingly the diminshed/whole-tone sounds, you might find some of those "outside" sounds you're looking for.

That said, if you and the guys you're playing with can't play "inside", outside's gonna sound pretty strange!

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Jason Hollar

That said, if you and the guys you're playing with can't play "inside", outside's gonna sound pretty strange!

I always call that going outside without being able to find the door back in.

Thanks guys

"yet have that something 'extra' that makes them totally non-textbook"

I think the lines I've been listening to have an awful lot of this in them.

It's encouraging to know that everyone gets there by starting from the beginning. It sounds obvious, but in this case it's something I hadn't been able to understand.

Right. I've got an Aebersold book or two in the house I'll get back to them tonight.

[Ric5]

you gotta feel it ... get rid of the sheet music and feel it.

[Pacman]

Eventually, Jeff, yes. But not until the homework's done. Jazz is all about honoring history, and then moving forward. Start at the watershed, afromoose. And that means Louis Armstrong and work your way forward.

Nothing against learning theory. If you're limited by having learned theory, you never had anything to say in the first place (in my opinion).

[SBassman]

Some good words here.

Listening to a ton of the music is as important as all the other stuff.

[amper]

Me, I hear jazz in my head all the time, but I'm just not a good enough instrumentalist to play what I hear

I've resolved to change that. It's time to press the ears into the brain into the fingers into the metal into the wood. Hopefully, it will distract me from my pending, unwanted divorce, among other things...

Right now, what I'm hearing is Ray Brown on Blossom Dearie's "Tea for Two", on the album "Once Upon a Summertime", from 1958. Utterly sublime.

OTOH, it's difficult to listen to that track, because it makes me cry all over the strings.

I'd take lessons, but I'm broke, too...so all I can do is fall back on the old standby of playing along with the records I already own, since I don't know anyone else interested in fumbling around with me.

[John Wentzien]

Jazz is about learning the rules first---then breaking them! (or at least pushing the boundaries)
Start from the beginning..I'd suggest learning 12-bar blues inside out first.
Blues is the root of Jazz... and rock -and country for that matter.
When you get that in your head you'll start to hear where all the good improvisation comes from.

[azureblue]

On the spot music composition- creating a piece of music from another piece of music in real time, with the other players.
Knowing the "rules" so well that they become instinctual. And knowing when to use what rules- when to play basic, inside, outside, counterpoint, pedal bass, melodic, double the melody, etc.
Having an near instantaneous knowledge of chord theory.
Playing a musical chess game with the other players- knowing how to play off them and with them.

I used to play in a band with three Drs. of Physics. And they all regarded jazz as more complex than physics, because of the lack of structure and the intricacies of creating good music without thinking about it. And they loved the challenge of being artistic within teh grid of jazz theory.

And you will never stop learning to play jazz. There will always be something new to learn, even if you have played a tune a thousand times.

[azureblue]

to Amper:
There is a wealth of jazz on youtube. Get Firefox and download helper, and you can D/L the vids and study them.

[bassbrad]

As jazz bass players we have to have understanding of music on many levels, both as historians and explorers. First we have to understand the history and development of jazz, theory, song forms, melodic structure, improvisation and how all that relates to the bass part. We not only have to think of jazz in terms of periods and styles but just as well as the approach of individual players & composers. We have to pair an intensive study of recordings with our own exploration of jazz in the practice room and playing with others.
To use one of your examples Rip, Rig & Panic by Roland Kirk (he wasn't Rahsaan yet) with Richard Davis on bass, Jaki Byard and Elvin Jones. First off all of those guys were masters of jazz it's history and supreme explorers. They also knew that that date was with one of the most challenging and in many ways controversial figures in jazz at the time playing his compositions drawing influences from not only jazz but classical and popular music. I hear Richard keeping the foundation and answering to leads from the other rhythm players as well as the lead not really going outside at all.

[E2daGGurl]

Yeah, it's boring, parts of it - learning to walk, but you gotta learn to walk to play jazz. There are various ways to learn - knowing the rules helped, but hey, I figured out some of it on my own and then only later found that yeah, I was following those rules. I don't think my walking lines are boring (I'll poll the audience...), but learning how to do them better involves quite a bit of potentially boring practice. I've gotten more and more into it (much to the annoyance of certain household members - yeah, some of it is repetitive - like scales).

You may know more theory than you realize. But then, not everyone is cut out to play jazz.

You do have to listen to it - for me, those are the only lines that stay in my head while everything else floats out, so maybe it's just different strokes for different folks.

[SBassman]

Originally Posted by E2daGGurl

Yeah, it's boring, parts of it - learning to walk...learning how to do them better involves quite a bit of potentially boring practice...

I guess we're all different. I find learning more about walking to be anything but boring.

[E2daGGurl]

Originally Posted by SBassman

I guess we're all different. I find learning more about walking to be anything but boring.

I should have said, "I can see how someone would find it boring." I remember a time, long ago, when I didn't appreciate it the way I do today. I've gone through phases in my musical life, started out classical, played in jazz bands, went into some punk phase, still like garage style/grunge (to play) but am primarily back into jazz. When I was at the height of my punk/grunge period, I just didn't find jazz as interesting. I still think the grunge/punk period helped (very much) what I do now.

The learning part is never boring. But sometimes, the technical practice (which perhaps others don't need - I do) is indeed a little tedious. I usually like watching my hands do all those spider things on the fretboard (most of the time), and have no trouble playing the same lines over and over - although I see how some people do and sometimes, I do too. But if I'm not learning more, I'm not as excited. I took what the OP said to indicate that the learning part is going pretty slowly - so I do understand the boredom.

At the same time, I prefer (very much) practicing those lines with someone else to play along ( a drummer, a drum machine, a guitarist, a saxophonist, a singer, a keyboardist - anything, anyone).

Learning things by myself? Love it - never boring. A lot of it is thought practice and then just applying it to the fretboard. I can sit and study a collection of chords and think up lines all day long and am never bored. There are always some surprises and more things to think about/work on.

So learning more or new is always fun (and since I am something of an insomniac, even the wee hours of the morning are a good time for me to think through whether I know what pattern I'm doing and whether I can remember the chords to a chart). Doing the same thing over and over (which sometimes is what I personally have to do, to get it right), yeah, I can understand how some people would be bored... ii-V-i....ii-V..I...(key change) ii-V-i...(different position)... (different pattern)...back to...ii-V..i I have hope that I'll get past this phase. I hope it will become natural.

If a person is used to shredding or always going for speed and yet more dazzling fingerwork, as some of my young bass-playing friends are, the relative sparseness of walking bass, when it is in one of its most elegant forms, may seem rather boring. It's not that you can't put in way more notes (you can I suppose) but at some point, it's no longer walking bass - it's something else. I have no idea how it's formally defined, aside from what I read here (and I do read the stuff on the double bass forum, including the dissertations and so forth).

But if you're never bored by anything about jazz practice, that's very cool. I think there have been fine jazz bassists who eventually invent motifs that I'd say are far outside walking - just because they need to.

To the OP: it helps immensely if you're playing with others. To me, one of the fun things about being in jazz bands is that many are very fluid, and each practice is different, and also, you can play with just one other person and get really good, really tight - something hard to do in other musical genres. If you can record yourself playing with someone else, you may be really surprised at how good it sounds - sometimes it's hard to hear while thinking about what we're doing. Also the very specific thing walking bass adds to a piece is important to hear - that's why everyone is talking about listening to jazz all the time.

If you can get a guitarist to lay down some practice tracks (or a keyboardist - but I use a simple condenser mike and the guitar sounds way better to my ear), then all of a sudden, those lines really shine. (Not as much into jazz bass solos - especially not my own).

And yes, we're all different.

[totalimmortal08]

everyone has pretty much nailed it. just let go of the theory and just listen. hell, if i tried putting theory to a bird blues, i'd go crazy