Natural Minor Question

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I've never seen the names of the modes of the natural minor scale listed. Obviously it still follows the pattern of the major scale modes, but starting on Aeolean. Do people not use these names for minor scale modes because they not only imply a major scale but also go in the wrong order (Ionian being third, etc)? Are there actual names for natural minor modes?

[ONYX]

Probably because they would carry the same names as the modes of the "major" scale. e.g. The 2nd mode of the natural minor would be the Locrian mode of the major scale----3rd mode would be the Ionian and so forth and so on.

[Lyle Caldwell]

No one bases modes off of natural minor, because they are the same modes used in major.
However, learn the modes of harmonic and melodic minor. Big fun.

[Correlli]

Key C - Major

C Ionian (Diatonic Major) - C, D, E, F, G, A, B,
D Dorian - D, E, F, G, A, B, C
E Phrygian - E, F, G, A, B, C, D
F Lydian - F, G, A, B, C, D, E
G Mixolydian - G, A, B, C, D, E, F
A Aeolian (Natural Minor) - A, B, C, D, E, F, G
B Locrain - B, C, D, E, F, G, A

Key - A Minor

A Aeolian (Natural Minor) - A, B, C, D, E, F, G
B Locrain - B, C, D, E, F, G, A
C Ionian (Diatonic Major) - C, D, E, F, G, A, B,
D Dorian - D, E, F, G, A, B, C
E Phrygian - E, F, G, A, B, C, D
F Lydian - F, G, A, B, C, D, E
G Mixolydian - G, A, B, C, D, E, F

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

Key C - Major

C Ionian (Diatonic Major) - C, D, E, F, G, A, B,
D Dorian - D, E, F, G, A, B, C
E Phrygian - E, F, G, A, B, C, D
F Lydian - F, G, A, B, C, D, E
G Mixolydian - G, A, B, C, D, E, F
A Aeolian (Natural Minor) - A, B, C, D, E, F, G
B Locrain - B, C, D, E, F, G, A

Key - A Minor

A Aeolian (Natural Minor) - A, B, C, D, E, F, G
B Locrain - B, C, D, E, F, G, A
C Ionian (Diatonic Major) - C, D, E, F, G, A, B,
D Dorian - D, E, F, G, A, B, C
E Phrygian - E, F, G, A, B, C, D
F Lydian - F, G, A, B, C, D, E
G Mixolydian - G, A, B, C, D, E, F

I know that is the order of the modes as they follow in the major scale- but are you saying that the names of the major modes still apply in natural minor?

[Lyle Caldwell]

Yes, but you're thinking about it wrong (no offense).

Playing Aeolian isn't the same as playing A natural minor. Aeolian is a mode, A minor is a key.

If you're in the key of A minor, you may play A Aeolian over the i, or you could also play A Dorian or A Phrygian over the i as well.

And then, depending on whether the iv is a iv or a IV or a IV7, you have other choices. You could play the same modes of D as you did of A over the i, or you could play D Lydian, D Mixolydian, or D Ionian. Even better, you can mix and match to add color.

Modes are about tonal centers rather than keys.

[Correlli]

Here's another view of Modes

C Ionain - C, D, E, F, G, A, B

C Dorian - C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B

C Phrygain - C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, B

C Lydian - C, D, E, F#, G, A, B

C Mixolydian - C, D, E, F, G, Ab, B

C Aeolian - C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, B

C Locrian - C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb



Hope you're not getting to confused

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Lyle Caldwell

Yes, but you're thinking about it wrong (no offense).

Playing Aeolian isn't the same as playing A natural minor. Aeolian is a mode, A minor is a key.

If you're in the key of A minor, you may play A Aeolian over the i, or you could also play A Dorian or A Phrygian over the i as well.

And then, depending on whether the iv is a iv or a IV or a IV7, you have other choices. You could play the same modes of D as you did of A over the i, or you could play D Lydian, D Mixolydian, or D Ionian. Even better, you can mix and match to add color.

Modes are about tonal centers rather than keys.

I'm probably getting this confused, so please forgive me, but by talking about playing A Dorian or Phrygian over the i, aren't you talking about which scales can be played over a i chord? My question was what were, if any, the specific names of the modes of natural minor scale. I realize different scales and modes from other chords can be played over certain chords, but I thought the names of the modes of a specific type of scale were fixed. Don't get me wrong-I realize that the names don't matter when it comes to actually playing music; it's about the sounds and harmonies you make, but I was asking out of a simple curiosity.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

Here's another view of Modes

C Ionain - C, D, E, F, G, A, B

C Dorian - C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B

C Phrygain - C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, B

C Lydian - C, D, E, F#, G, A, B

C Mixolydian - C, D, E, F, G, Ab, B

C Aeolian - C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, B

C Locrian - C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb



Hope you're not getting to confused

I'm not confused about how the note selection works-your example is actually the way I've been practicing modes while moving in the cycle of fifths. I'm just curious about if the names are still technically the same for a natural minor scale. For example, in A minor, the third degree forms a C Ionian pattern-but would you technically still call it a C Ionian if you're playing in a minor key? I'm just wondering because when the different Greek names are used it makes me anyways normally think of the key being major. Again, this isn't for musical application, just wondering.

[Lyle Caldwell]

Once again, Ionian is Ionian, no matter if it's based on the tonic (C Major) or on the minor third (A minor).

There is no such thing as "the modes of natural minor".

You really need to divorce yourself from thinking that Ionian = major and Aeolian = natural minor. The notes of the modes are the same as the notes in the scales, but their function is different. They are historical coincidences.

For example, there are tons of guys who will play Mixolydian mode in a major key. The key may be G major, which has a major 7, but they will happily play G Mixolydian, with the minor 7. Part of this is most rock and country players' dependence on pentatonic scales, but not all. Jimmy Page and Jerry Garcia did this kind of thing a lot.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Lyle Caldwell

Once again, Ionian is Ionian, no matter if it's based on the tonic (C Major) or on the minor third (A minor).

There is no such thing as "the modes of natural minor".

You really need to divorce yourself from thinking that Ionian = major and Aeolian = natural minor. The notes of the modes are the same as the notes in the scales, but their function is different. They are historical coincidences.

Okay then. It just seemed odd to me that there were no given mode names to natural minor when there are for major, melodic minor, etc. I realize natural minor and major contain the same note patterns, but I thought that there might have been a difference in naming just for a lack of confusion's sake.

And it's not that I was thinking that Ionian=major and Aeolian=minor-I was stating that whenever any of the Greek names used (Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc., whether the mode itself is minor or not), it makes me immediately think the song itself is in major key, when in reality the melody of the song could be in a minor key.

[Lyle Caldwell]

I'm not trying to be rude or dogmatic.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Lyle Caldwell

I'm not trying to be rude or dogmatic.

I wasn't trying to imply that you were Just trying to make sure my meaning was coming across. I've been working on this stuff by myself for a while now, and I don't have a way to discuss it with anyone other than on the internet, where you never know if people really understand what you mean

[dodgy_ian]

yeah, I've never come across seperate modes for the natural minor, here are the modes for the other minors tho:

Harmonic minor

harmonic minor
Locrian sharp6
Ionian sharp5
Dorian sharp4
Phrygian dominant
Lydian sharp2
Mixolydian sharp1

(all just slightly altered major modes)

Melodic minor

MElodic minor
dorian b2
lydian aug
lydian b7
mixolydian b6
aelioan b5
locrian b4

I think its important to be able to understand the function of a given chord in a sequence (and hence its related scale/mode) but equally you need to be able to have each scale under your fingers as a seperate individual scale and know that if you see a minor chord for eg, depending upon the sound you want to create you can choose from a range of minor scales to use over said chord.

Dodge
Dodge

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by dodgy_ian

Melodic minor

MElodic minor
dorian b2
lydian aug
lydian b7
mixolydian b6
aelioan b5
locrian b4

Dodge
Dodge

That's a nice way of naming those modes. I've been working with The Jazz Theory book and the mode names are written out a little different and doesn't reference the major mode names more than three times (and the locrian reference (Locrian #2) they mention on the sixth mode, not seventh). Your way makes a reference to the major modes, which I'm sure makes their patterning easier to remember. I'll have to try it that way.

[dodgy_ian]

i'm guessing there's quite a few ways tho that was the names i was told in the composition/arranging/improv module I did - mayb its us/uk diffference?

dodge

[Lyle Caldwell]

You'll also hear terms like Superlocrian. You can call them Clarence, Ray, and Floorsheim if you want, as long as you know how to use them musically.

[dodgy_ian]

Originally Posted by Lyle Caldwell

You'll also hear terms like Superlocrian. You can call them Clarence, Ray, and Floorsheim if you want, as long as you know how to use them musically.

fullly right. floorsheim, that some kinda german floor polish

dodge

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

I'm not confused about how the note selection works-your example is actually the way I've been practicing modes while moving in the cycle of fifths. I'm just curious about if the names are still technically the same for a natural minor scale. For example, in A minor, the third degree forms a C Ionian pattern-but would you technically still call it a C Ionian if you're playing in a minor key? I'm just wondering because when the different Greek names are used it makes me anyways normally think of the key being major. Again, this isn't for musical application, just wondering.

It sounds like you're on the right track. See you around dude

[Howard K]

The names dont change because the scale/mode doesnt change, the pattern of intervals is exactly the same.

Lyle is right, it's not helpful to view modes as relating to their parent scale, it's better to think of them as independant scales in their own right.

For the purpose of learning to get around the fretboard it can help to think of modes as 'shapes', but this isnt the most musical way of approaching it. If you play A Aeolian over a CMaj7 chord you are still playing C Major. You'd be better off working on two octave scales instead.

My 2ps