Need advice on notation

[Tehdouglas]

Well first of all I'd like to shout out thanks to all you TB people dedicated to sharing your knowldege and tips, as its helping me advance as a young bassist. The stickies are especially helpful, so thanks!

Anyways, I've recently started to finally overcome a roadblock Ive had for the past week, were I sort of lost myself among getting better; feeling like I was stuck. After reading many helpful articles here and talking to some other musicians (as well as a few good interviews) I feel like I'm ready to take my playing to a more serious level, as I truly believe it is something I can devote my life to and not look back and regret.

Getting to the topic of the post, I've decided to refine a practice schedule and focus more on quality than quantity, therefore using my time to a much great advantage. Among these new methods Ive decided on (including the great idea of a notebook mentioned in the Practice post!) is cracking down and using Music notation. Although I admit to using tab still, as it is how I first started as a begginer, nowadays I rarely do use it unless I need to pick something up fast (such as if I have a guitarist over and he wants to play something specifc). Thanks to you guys here I've realized just how lame Tab can be though and its becoming obsolete to me I want to focus much more on ear training and I'm wondering if documenting what I translate on notation would be superior than tab, when considering time spent? I have a class next year (highschool) where notation is covered fully, so I will learn it, but should I just suck it up and use it now? And does anyone have and good tips for ear training? I'm planning to working on anything from songs to tv to, eventually, stuff in my head.

Thanks for reading! Any comments are appreciated (or more tips as well!)

[BenWC87]

Do you mean "Music Notation"? Start your ear training by memorizing the sounds of all the intervals.

[Tehdouglas]

Yeah sorry, fixed

[pocketmonster]

The interval training mentioned above is a good place to start. Have someone else play intervals on a suitable instrument (piano, guitar, bass, etc.). You have to guess the interval. For instance, they play C + E and you have to call out "major third". Stay inside of an octave until you master all those sounds. At the point you are able to call all combinations correctly and instantaneously, you will be way ahead of the pack. I have seen refereces to software that does this as well, so you don't need a friend who knows intervals... go surfing.

Step two is to play any given note on your bass and then hit the note a given interval away from it. Play a C, think "major third" and go up to E. Before long you will be able to hear and play entire songs with few or no mistakes. Also learn the relationships of going up vs. down. Up a minor third (C to Eb) gets you to the same pitch as down a major sixth (C to Eb, down an octave from the other Eb).

As for notation, hit the books. Notation is not hard, but it takes time to learn and years to master. Personal preference is to get a good handle on rhythm before worrying much about pitch, but lots of approaches get you to the same result.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by pocketmonster

Step two is to play any given note on your bass and then hit the note a given interval away from it. Play a C, think "major third" and go up to E. Before long you will be able to hear and play entire songs with few or no mistakes. Also learn the relationships of going up vs. down. Up a minor third (C to Eb) gets you to the same pitch as down a major sixth (C to Eb, down an octave from the other Eb).

This is great advice.

Especially if you sing the second note before you play it. Play C, sing E and then play E to see how close you get. Then play Ab, sing C, play C etc etc. and work through all the intervals that way.

Try writing out in notation some bass lines that you can already play. You're luck your HS has a music theory class, it will really help.

[IanStephenson]

The "trick" for intervals is to remember cheesy songs which use that interval, so you have an instant reference in your head you can mentally play back. Pick your own, but for example the "Hi-Ho" bit from the 7 dwarfs is a perfect 4th. Some intervals are tougher to find good examples for: Moonlight Serenade is a 6th. The real toughy is the Major 7th (hint - it's in West Side Story).

Notation is something you can learn quickly, but it takes years to internalize. I can (could) sight read treble clef to a high standard, but I still struggle to read and play bass clef. Your music class won't help much - it'll teach you the notes, but you can learn that in an hour anyway. You need to jump in and start playing. I'm working through Ron Velosky's Sight Reading for Bass.

Ian

[pocketmonster]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

The "trick" for intervals is to remember cheesy songs which use that interval, so you have an instant reference in your head you can mentally play back. Pick your own, but for example the "Hi-Ho" bit from the 7 dwarfs is a perfect 4th. Some intervals are tougher to find good examples for: Moonlight Serenade is a 6th. The real toughy is the Major 7th (hint - it's in West Side Story).

Well, the chorus of Maria starts with a major 7th. Interestingly I find major and minor sevenths easy because they are the inverse of such small intervals (minor and major second). Early on I found fourths and fifths the hardest to tell apart in the heat of the moment because they both sound very round. Since major thirds are easy, my brain thinks of fourths as being a half step bigger.

My cheesy major sixth song is the Swedish Chef song from The Muppet Show...

As long as we are playing Interval Trivia, does anyone know offhand which is the "Devil's interval?" (without looking it up) It starts another famous West Side Story song.

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

4+ or b5

Dunno if "tritone" is a correct term in english.

Two notes that are three whole tones apart.

It has a really evil sound

[pocketmonster]

Yeah, tritone, augmented fourth, diminished fifth. All the same in English. Without it and the minor second, horror flick score composers would be out of business.

[Tehdouglas]

Thanks for all the advice guys. So I should pretty much focus on learning how all the notes of a scale sound in relation to the root, then work on testing myself to get them all down, and finally work on both lower and higher majors/minor intervals. Should I start anywhere particular with scales or just jump around? Stay in the C scale for awhile?

[WillPlay4Food]

You could always use the circle of fifths/cycle of fourths. That would make it easier to remember which scales you've studied.

[IanStephenson]

Unless you've got perfect pitch (which isn't common, and isn't really much use anyway) then it really doesn't matter which key you you're using. However when you're learning you'll want to get mentally tuned in to the "current" scale.

Start of by doing a session on one scale, and then do the next session in a different key. When you get better, do half a session in one key, then switch to the next. Ultimatly you want to be able to switch keys intsantly, but it can take you a while to get used to a key when you're starting out.

Ian

[Tehdouglas]

Hey guys thanks for the help. I've been using the Online Interval Trainer at http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html along with my bass. This is the kind of stuff you'll notice over time right? Like right now it doesn't seem like a big help but in the future I know having your ear trained for knowing intervals will be good. How much time do you think is good to practice each day for a good session? I have a few hours a day for bass, except this week (I'm on vacation so I have tons of time). I'm thinking 30 minutes of practice with the online tool will be good each day for developing a good ear?

Right now my score is 208 right/87 wrong, though taking note I went and got my bass when I was about half of that score so I started getting more right with the bass. I only have Major 3rd/7th, Perfect 5th, and Octacve checked off atm though. This is all worth it though, right? Its very boring but Im trying to stick too it

[IanStephenson]

Yeah - its worth it. Just thing of it as a long term investment. You put the work in now, you get back for the rest of your life. Once you can hear the intervals you can just "hear" a tune/bass line, and then pick your bass up and play it.

I'd put a blitz on it while you're off work, get most of the work done (though there is only so much you can do in a week - it takes time to sink in no matter how much you practise), then set aside a small bit of each practise session after than - maybe just 10 mins a go, just to polish it. Doing a little each day, no matter how small will pay off over say a month.

Ian

[Tehdouglas]

Thanks Ian, oh, and I'm on vacation from highschool

Btw, Im not to it yet, but whats a Unision and a Tritone?

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

Unison is the hardest interval of them all... if you play a C, to play unison you need to play C again... tuff, huh?

Tritone means tri=three tone=tone so it means two notes that are three tones apart, for example: F and B.

The tritone is the exact half of the chromatic scale, thus making this interval the only one that you can invert without changing it into another. See, If you take... say C and G it's a perfect fifth, turn them 'round to G and C and you get a perfect fourth. Each interval's got it's "complementary" inversion. The tritone is its own inversion: C to F# is a tritone, as is F# to C.

[Tehdouglas]

Good info, thanks. Unison sounds tough >< :P

[WillPlay4Food]

ToR-Tu-Ra,

Props for quoting Squirrel Nut Zippers in your sig man.

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

Hey! 'nother Zippers' fan! Great band! Smart lyrics and F-ing swingin'!