Need help with modes and their applications???

[suitlandkid2005]

I was lookinh up modes on here. I know there's a bunch of them. I got the Bass Grimoire book and I'm like whoa! because there are so many. I was thinking about how a bassist uses modes. I read how some notes might not sound right with another. I was wondering how could that be possible when there are different modes and you could be playing in any of them so how is there a such thing as a wrong note? I really need help on this so I can be able to improvise when I jam with friend who plays guitar. Do we both have to be in the same key and mode? And how does that work? Would I have to wait for him to make up something in order to come up with something within the mode and him vice versa?

[ysand]

There are a lot of threads around with the same question and with tons of answers
Take a look and/or use the search button

[Dogbertday]

There really is no such thing as a wrong note....

but GENERALLY (and I do mean generally... not always) if you have a minor chord you pick a minor mode (dorian, phrygian, aolian) and if you're in a major chord you'll pick a major mode (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian)

This is if you're dealing with triads... if you have a flatted 9th on a minor chord you will most likely choose phygian... if it's a major 7th chord either lydian or Ionian will work very nicely... if it's a dominant 7 chord, then mixolydian would be the obvious common choice.

now this can get funky like if you have a flatted 9th in a major chord you may need to go with super locrian... if it's a maj7 +4 you would probably use lydian...


The other application I've found for modes is much simpler. If you are playing a jazz tune, you can find the major key of the moment, and take your solo using that major scale (or Ionian mode).. as the chords change around this key center, your mode will still work and might give you some free melodic ideas..

ex. if you have this chord progression... changing chords every bar...

Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 F#dim B7b9 Em

You can take every one of those changes by soloing on your G major scale because it's the relative major to the minor key of Em which all of these chords are in.

Using this method you will be playing simple melodic lines, but the colors of each note will change with each chord change

try going through that chord progression on a piano while playing one note (any note) in the G major scale and this will be obvious...

taking a G for example would be the 7th in the Am7 chord... 13th in the D7... root in the Gmaj7... 5th in the CMaj7... 9th in the F#dim... minor 6 in the B7b9... and 3rd in the Em....

I hope this makes sense

[suitlandkid2005]

Originally Posted by Dogbertday

There really is no such thing as a wrong note....

but GENERALLY (and I do mean generally... not always) if you have a minor chord you pick a minor mode (dorian, phrygian, aolian) and if you're in a major chord you'll pick a major mode (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian)

This is if you're dealing with triads... if you have a flatted 9th on a minor chord you will most likely choose phygian... if it's a major 7th chord either lydian or Ionian will work very nicely... if it's a dominant 7 chord, then mixolydian would be the obvious common choice.

now this can get funky like if you have a flatted 9th in a major chord you may need to go with super locrian... if it's a maj7 +4 you would probably use lydian...


The other application I've found for modes is much simpler. If you are playing a jazz tune, you can find the major key of the moment, and take your solo using that major scale (or Ionian mode).. as the chords change around this key center, your mode will still work and might give you some free melodic ideas..

ex. if you have this chord progression... changing chords every bar...

Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 F#dim B7b9 Em

You can take every one of those changes by soloing on your G major scale because it's the relative major to the minor key of Em which all of these chords are in.

Using this method you will be playing simple melodic lines, but the colors of each note will change with each chord change

try going through that chord progression on a piano while playing one note (any note) in the G major scale and this will be obvious...

taking a G for example would be the 7th in the Am7 chord... 13th in the D7... root in the Gmaj7... 5th in the CMaj7... 9th in the F#dim... minor 6 in the B7b9... and 3rd in the Em....

I hope this makes sense

I sounds very confusing or maybe I am just reading into it too much but thanks for the info. I will definitely take this and analyze it.

[tobie]

Simple answer: in general, when you play one of the notes from the current chord being played, it will almost always sound 'OK'. The root note of the current chord is always an easy & safe haven. You can then even jump accross octaves and it will still sound 'OK' - even quite nice.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by tobie

Simple answer: in general, when you play one of the notes from the current chord being played, it will almost always sound 'OK'. The root note of the current chord is always an easy & safe haven. You can then even jump accross octaves and it will still sound 'OK' - even quite nice.

True - but that's really nothing to do with applying modes...

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by suitlandkid2005

I was thinking about how a bassist uses modes.

As a bassist in rock and pop groups - I never used modes and they were never discussed in any of these types of bands I played in over about 20 years!!

But - my first Jazz lesson and modes suddenly become essential knowledge!

Every Jazz student starts off with tunes like Miles Davis' "So What" - which is "Modal Jazz" and which is based on 2 modes a semi-tone apart! You also go on to learn pretty quickly how a Dorian mode can sound OK over a minor chord etc etc.

My view of the simple answer is - if you're going to play Jazz - Modes are a must!

But if you're not playing Jazz - forget it!!

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

As a bassist in rock and pop groups - I never used modes and they were never discussed in any of these types of bands I played in over about 20 years!!

But - my first Jazz lesson and modes suddenly become essential knowledge!

Every Jazz student starts off with tunes like Miles Davis' "So What" - which is "Modal Jazz" and which is based on 2 modes a semi-tone apart! You also go on to learn pretty quickly how a Dorian mode can sound OK over a minor chord etc etc.

My view of the simple answer is - if you're going to play Jazz - Modes are a must!

But if you're not playing Jazz - forget it!!

I don't fully agree with this because in Pop music the songs are very diatonic most of the time so it is very important for the bass player when filling-in to know the color and shade of each chord because it is going to sound wrong if not,

Sly

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by suitlandkid2005

I was lookinh up modes on here. I know there's a bunch of them. I got the Bass Grimoire book and I'm like whoa! because there are so many. I was thinking about how a bassist uses modes. I read how some notes might not sound right with another. I was wondering how could that be possible when there are different modes and you could be playing in any of them so how is there a such thing as a wrong note? I really need help on this so I can be able to improvise when I jam with friend who plays guitar. Do we both have to be in the same key and mode? And how does that work? Would I have to wait for him to make up something in order to come up with something within the mode and him vice versa?

For a bass player it is important to have a little knowledge at least about modes.
One very important thing to know is this: what makes a mode different from another of the same category is the notes between the chord tones or arpeggios. If you stick to roots or 4 notes arpeggios you'll never be wrong.
Here is the important note for each mode of the major scale:

Ionian I (maj) this is the basic major scale,
Dorian II (min) the major 6th,
Phrygian III (min) the flat 2nd
Lydian IV (maj) the #4th
Mixolydian V (maj) the flat 7th
Eolian VI (min) the flat 6th
Locrian VII (half-diminished) the flat 5th.

In Jazz music there is a lot of stuff about Modes as well:
There is the basic stuff and the advanced stuff to learn and apply.

Sly

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

I don't fully agree with this because in Pop music the songs are very diatonic most of the time so it is very important for the bass player when filling-in to know the color and shade of each chord because it is going to sound wrong if not,

Sly

Well I agree that as a rock/pop bass player it is important to know the notes in chords - but that does not necessarily involve any mention of modes!

So - I played in bands for over 20 years and not one person/musician I met in all that time, mentioned modes - whereas of course there was discussion of what a Minor 7 chord consists of etc.

But as I said - when I started learning about Jazz - then modes come up very early in the process!

[Jake of Bass]

I've played in bands for 12 years across a whole bunch of styles and modes have been one of the key ingredients to identifying and applying the harmony used in the song, along with arpeggios. Knowing your modes can also help select your passing tones - there's really a whole bunch of stuff that you can read up on.

It just depends if you're happy playing in the pocket all the time, or if you want to branch out and experiment whilst armed with certain tools of the trade

[Bruce Lindfield]

You don't need to know modes to select passing tones - you just need to know chord tones and many chromatic passing notes aren't even part of the current mode...

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

You don't need to know modes to select passing tones - you just need to know chord tones and many chromatic passing notes aren't even part of the current mode...

Your typical 12 bar blues bassline has a lot of passing tones. With a starting chord of, say, C7, what modes are you using? Or do you not even bother and just play arpeggios and hope the other notes you play sound good? C major isn't going to work for starters, even just a straight C mixolydian won't work either if your IV chord is F7, because then it changes to F mixolydian, or if you're still thinking of C as your harmonic centre, changes to C dorian.

What do you do when constructing a bassline and though a 7th isn't played in the chordal instruments, you wish to include a 7th. Do you use a major 7 or dominant 7? How do you know?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by CTBassman60

Of course you do. You play scales, riffs? They're within some mode.

No - I played chords!

You missed my point and took it out of context - so the point was that nobody I worked with in that context, talked about modes - they talked about chords!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

Your typical 12 bar blues bassline has a lot of passing tones. With a starting chord of, say, C7, what modes are you using? Or do you not even bother and just play arpeggios and hope the other notes you play sound good? C major isn't going to work for starters, even just a straight C mixolydian won't work either if your IV chord is F7, because then it changes to F mixolydian, or if you're still thinking of C as your harmonic centre, changes to C dorian.

What do you do when constructing a bassline and though a 7th isn't played in the chordal instruments, you wish to include a 7th. Do you use a major 7 or dominant 7? How do you know?

By listening to the "greats" and listening to what they do - listening to hundreds and thousands of records and playing along to them - going to hundreds of gigs and watching what those people did..talking to other musicians, playing with them, playing jams and gigs etc etc.

There are many ways to do this that never involve using the word "mode" !!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

Your typical 12 bar blues bassline has a lot of passing tones. With a starting chord of, say, C7, what modes are you using? Or do you not even bother and just play arpeggios and hope the other notes you play sound good? C major isn't going to work for starters, even just a straight C mixolydian won't work either if your IV chord is F7, because then it changes to F mixolydian, or if you're still thinking of C as your harmonic centre, changes to C dorian.

What do you do when constructing a bassline and though a 7th isn't played in the chordal instruments, you wish to include a 7th. Do you use a major 7 or dominant 7? How do you know?

PS - Do you really think Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson etc etc. sat around discussing modes...

Nope - they just played the Blues!

[Jake of Bass]

But you don't see what you're communicating here.

The OP is saying he's got a book with a whole bunch of modes in it, and is asking what he's meant to use them for as he wants to learn. You're basically telling him "Hey, don't worry about learning! I didn't learn any theory so why should you?"

Whereas I'm telling him "If you want to learn, there's a lot of applications for modes. It'll take some time but you will find them very useful and applicable to many styles of music."

Now, which is the more constructive advice here?

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

But you don't see what you're communicating here.

The OP is saying he's got a book with a whole bunch of modes in it, and is asking what he's meant to use them for as he wants to learn. You're basically telling him "Hey, don't worry about learning! I didn't learn any theory so why should you?"

Whereas I'm telling him "If you want to learn, there's a lot of applications for modes. It'll take some time but you will find them very useful and applicable to many styles of music."

Now, which is the more constructive advice here?

+1

I agree that a basic knowledge about Modes is good for any musician.

Bruce, don't forget that Blues Harmony is a different beast then diatonic or traditional Harmony. Actually a basic I-IV-V Blues progression is based on all Mixolydian modes which is a good thing to know when you start playing the Blues.

Sly

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

But you don't see what you're communicating here.

The OP is saying he's got a book with a whole bunch of modes in it, and is asking what he's meant to use them for as he wants to learn. You're basically telling him "Hey, don't worry about learning! I didn't learn any theory so why should you?"

Whereas I'm telling him "If you want to learn, there's a lot of applications for modes. It'll take some time but you will find them very useful and applicable to many styles of music."

Now, which is the more constructive advice here?

I'm just being honest - I have found modes very useful in playing Jazz - but not in any other types of music.

I am giving the benefit of my 30 years of experience.

If you play in the average rock/pop group I would be very surprised if anybody mentions modes - whereas "Modal Jazz" is amongst the most popular in the genre...

[rcarraher]

Originally Posted by Dogbertday

There really is no such thing as a wrong note....

but GENERALLY (and I do mean generally... not always) if you have a minor chord you pick a minor mode (dorian, phrygian, aolian) and if you're in a major chord you'll pick a major mode (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian)

This is if you're dealing with triads... if you have a flatted 9th on a minor chord you will most likely choose phygian... if it's a major 7th chord either lydian or Ionian will work very nicely... if it's a dominant 7 chord, then mixolydian would be the obvious common choice.

now this can get funky like if you have a flatted 9th in a major chord you may need to go with super locrian... if it's a maj7 +4 you would probably use lydian...


The other application I've found for modes is much simpler. If you are playing a jazz tune, you can find the major key of the moment, and take your solo using that major scale (or Ionian mode).. as the chords change around this key center, your mode will still work and might give you some free melodic ideas..

ex. if you have this chord progression... changing chords every bar...

Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 F#dim B7b9 Em

You can take every one of those changes by soloing on your G major scale because it's the relative major to the minor key of Em which all of these chords are in.

Using this method you will be playing simple melodic lines, but the colors of each note will change with each chord change

try going through that chord progression on a piano while playing one note (any note) in the G major scale and this will be obvious...

taking a G for example would be the 7th in the Am7 chord... 13th in the D7... root in the Gmaj7... 5th in the CMaj7... 9th in the F#dim... minor 6 in the B7b9... and 3rd in the Em....

I hope this makes sense

Well Said!