Need Help Taking the Next Big Leap...please?

[Despereaux]

Apparently my last post title did not strike any interest, so I'll try again. Basically I am following an instruction guide that basically stops at the tenets I've detailed below, and I would like the advice of some of the other established players who are grounded in sound music theory to help point me to the next logical progression learning this wonderful instrument. Thanks.

Original Post:

Recently switched from playing the six string guitar (15+ years) to the bass guitar and its been a liberating experience. I can't really put my fingers on why, but I can express myself musically so much better with this instrument. Its a real thrill.

I play mostly P&W music which is almost always in a major key. My first iteration as a bass player was to stick with root notes, some movement within the major scale the song was played in, etc.

I then learned my major and minor chord triads, followed by diminished, augmented, dominant 7th, add9's, sus4, etc. Also learned how to make 1st, 2nd inversions (and 3rd and 4th where needed) of these as well. I employ these regularly over the songs we play by practicing with the song LOTS to map out what and when I'm going to play over each progression in the song. A bit of work, but worth it and man does it help me learn my fretboard. I always try to learn the songs in a closed position so I can transfer keys (pesky vocalists!) easily.

I rarely, if ever, "copy" what the original artist did on the songs we play, unless the lick or riff is critical to the song. So, essentially, I just "make up" a bass line to go over the chord progression employing the triads and arpeggios mentioned above. I'm getting LOTS of positive feedback from the audience and its been exhilerating for me as a musician to finally have found myself. I can often create "groove" and all the options playing these triads, arpeggios and inversions of same has given me alot of fretboard freedom to drive the song.

That said, what is the next logical step for me to take creating bass lines? What of all these modes? Is it critical that I know these? I understand what they are...basically progressions built off the major scale pattern but beginning on a different tonic. Or, when/how do I employ accidentals within a chord structure that has established arpeggios...I mean, could I honestly play anything other than [A C# E G] over an A7 chord for example?

Is there a reasonable reference I could use for someone with absolutely no musical training other than what I have displayed here?

I know alot of people profess "feel it", "groove it" etc, but I like to follow rules (which will help me translate to other keys, etc) and will be transferrable to other styles of music. Also I find that there is more than enough freedom in those plethora of allowable notes to be creative (at least for me) and establish groove.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

[Despereaux]

hard to believe nobody can offer a next step suggestion....

seem to answer everyone else's posts.

Oh well.

[owensea777]

It's kinda of a tough question. I say learn everything about theory that you can, it will help you even if you don't use it. As for a reference, wish I could help you. THe only books I have are a beginner's book and The Bass Grimoire, which is awesome, but I don't quite understand it fully.

[T. B. Player]

What's really cool is when you start to apply your guitar abilities to bass.

You've identified what modes are, so it's simply a matter of application and practice at this point. Creativity is you're next step - and that's something that comes from within.

As for theory, knowing how to build chord structures and what moving and passing tones do to advance the song yet provide the foundation (1-3-5 and all the sharps and flats associated with it) is key. You've got that already. For example, in dominant 7 chords, every other tone in the scale can be considered a passing tone as long as you're progressing to another note in the chord structure as a "landing point" (on the beat in some songs, or on some syncopated note as an accent hit - usually with the rest of the band).

The only other suggestion I can offer (other than keep playing and listening to as much as you can for inspiration to fuel the creativity) is "pocket." You mentioned "groove," which is all about knowing where the "one" of each measure is and creating a foundation that lets the rest of the instrumentation and vocals build on it. When you're playing in an ensemble, you have to listen to the drummer's kick drum foot, and he (or she) has to listen to what you're doing. When you can synchronize your rhythms, the result is astounding. It's the reason why your bandmates can say "Play it like is on the record" and it still sounds wrong...because they have to tell the drummer to do the same thing. Many can't because they're not used to it, or it'll take them a while to work on the coordination. If the bass player's creating a groove, the bass drum backs off to simplicity; if the kick pattern is intricate, the bass might have to be really simple as to not get in the way, or synchronized to give added punch to the song. I've played in bands where it was a chore to get through the gig because I couldn't sync with the drummer. I've played where the drummer and I completely mesh from the first rehearsal - believe me, the band will notice the difference. It's why it's important that when a bass player and drummer click, removing either from the equation can kill a band.

The bass player is the glue between the drummer and the guitars, adding fills and riffs to create the groove, but establishing that pocket is the coolest feeling in the world - both to the musicians and to the audience.

[Despereaux]

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that when the drums and I are both "on" the songs sound MUCH better.

I will make it a point to try and work with him a bit more to make sure we are rythmically thinking the same thing on songs.

Regarding the next musical step stuff, your explanation about passing tones, etc, would be great in more detail. That's what I'm talking about.

I mean, I have learned my bass rudiments and applied them to songs. I guess I'm asking what is the next deeper thing to dive into? What are some of the tricks or favorite passing tones or influences to seek out next?

[Scot]

Don't despair, man!

What you appear to be looking for is someone to help guide you on to the next stage in your musical development. Someone who knows your musical strengths and weaknesses. Someone who can recognize things in your playing and immediately knows what path you're heading down. Someone who can inspire you to become better than what your are today. That someone does indeed exist. It's your bass instructor. If you don't have one, get one. You can spend hours or even days trying to explain to someone your musical background and where you're at musically but a good teacher will know more about you after spending just one half-hour with you and your bass then you could possibly explain. When you have a good teacher that you trust, you don't question whether or not knowing the modes of the major scale inside and out is critical. You just learn them because he/she told you to. Later, when you grow musically, things that you learned start making sense in a more useful way. You can't force that to happen, though. All you can do is keep at it and enjoy the ride with all the little landmarks you hit along the way.

I think you're on the right track trying to apply what you're learning in an ensemble situation. In the end, it's all about how well you can hear in your head the stuff you're practicing, how much studying and listening you've done to know the appropriate places to use the stuff, and how much practicing you've done so that you can transfer what you hear in your head in to music that comes out of your bass at just the right moment in time and without thinking about it. You can go it alone and try to learn by reading others' suggestions on Talkbass but a teacher will best steer you in the direction that's right for you, even if you only have a lesson here and there.

If you want to learn the "tricks" as you say for using passing tones I recommend delving in to listening to some jazz music and learning what those guys and gals are doing (transcribe the lines then play them on your bass). Ray Brown and Oscar Pettiford are two amazing jazz bassists and, like most of the great jazz bassists, use passing tones in their bass playing quite extensively. Jazz basslines often have a very linear approach (half and whole steps), which are conducive to using passing tones. Same goes for all the horn players, singers and other instrumentalists in jazz. Also check out James Jamerson's bass playing on the Motown classics. He's using them all over the place in a pop (R&B) setting, although his usage of them is very jazz-influenced. There's a book called "Standing In The Shadows Of Motwon" (not to be confused with the film of the same title) that contains bass transcriptions of many of his classic basslines. Get it if you don't already own it! The trick to playing passing tones is, like almost everything else, to listen to those that do it well, emulate what they're doing, analyze why they're doing it, then make it your own so that you can do it in your own way where appropriate.

So, if you're going to listen to me about your next step (assuming you don't take my advice to get a teacher), I say go get that Motown book, pick a line where Jamerson plays a passing tone, then come back here and we can discuss why we think he played it and/or why it works. Beware, though...some of the perfectly valid answers might be "because it grooves".

[Despereaux]

Thank you, Scot, for the time and thoughfulness you put into your reply.

The book will be Amazon'd today and I will start looking for an instructor.

I'll post again in a month and let the forum know how things are going.

[louieeadg]

Buy a drum kit. Play it. Smile.

[Cristo]

I would say instead of making up your own lines to songs that you play, actually try to play exactly what is on the recording. Analyze what those people did with your knowledge of music theory.

Understand what they did and why it works like it does. Learn the elements of their styles and what makes them unique. Then you can apply what you learned from other great players to your own playing.

This is not to say that making up your own stuff isn't good - just that you can learn from what others made up as well.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Cristo

I would say instead of making up your own lines to songs that you play, actually try to play exactly what is on the recording. Analyze what those people did with your knowledge of music theory.

Understand what they did and why it works like it does. Learn the elements of their styles and what makes them unique. Then you can apply what you learned from other great players to your own playing.

This is not to say that making up your own stuff isn't good - just that you can learn from what others made up as well.

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