Need some help about scales and chord progs

[CALopes]

Well, I'm playing bass for like almost an year.
I'm having some lessons more about groove and time keeping that I really really need.

So I have some questions about theory.
I have 3 different fingerings for 2 octave scales. I have the major scale, the dorian mode and the natural minor down. And then I think the rest of the modes as related to these scales.
My question is, should I kind of stop and get this really down for all of the modes or move on to the melodic minor?
I know it sounds silly, but I feel like I already can play it, I just can't really make it sound interesting, 'cos my choice of notes aren't the best. Are arpeggios the answer?

This leads me to another question. Improvising...
I can improvise over 251's, 1625's and the 12 bar blues, but I'd like to know other common chord progressions to study around jazz, fusion, soul and (why not) some rock.

If you have some tips about what you think its important, please tell me.

Tanks in advance

[Skitch it!]

Study chord tones more importantly, modes are not the answer to musicality but they do have pluses as long as you keep that thinking in context, not as a total approach, they shouldn't be.

When I was taught modes you learned and connected all of them across the board, horizontally, and vertically to how far you can go in one position. Arpegiate all of them and practice them in 3rd's, 4'th's, 5ths etc. While improvising avoid the 'root note' syndrome and work within harmony adding chromatic approaches to chord tones, not just running them top to bottom so to speak. I found modes v.useful for choosing good hand positions for lines etc. amongst other things.

I don't assign a mode to a chord, if what your working in is diatonic, I might play and play outside of any of them over whatever chord changes, not spell out the chords all the time by the 'appropriate' mode. I try and work within tension and resolution, not patterns (too much), hearing ahead. Work on your aural skills and connect the interval choice you hear before you execute it, that is what I try to do, I try

Get diatonic harmony down first before hitting yourself with the rest of the stuff, that is the grounding for all of it.

[mambo4]

+1 to the above. Understanding diatonic harmony and being able to relate you basslines to roots, chordtines, and passing tones will take farther faster than mastering modes

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by CALopes

Well, I'm playing bass for like almost an year. I'm having some lessons more about groove and time keeping that I really really need.

So I have some questions about theory.
I have 3 different fingerings for 2 octave scales. I have the major scale, the dorian mode and the natural minor down. And then I think the rest of the modes as related to these scales.
My question is, should I kind of stop and get this really down for all of the modes or move on to the melodic minor?
I know it sounds silly, but I feel like I already can play it, I just can't really make it sound interesting, 'cos my choice of notes aren't the best. Are arpeggios the answer?

Yes arpeggios are where you need to be spending your time. Modes have little use except in instrumental melodies. How many lead breaks are you getting now? I thought so.

This leads me to another question. Improvising...
I can improvise over 251's, 1625's and the 12 bar blues, but I'd like to know other common chord progressions to study around jazz, fusion, soul and (why not) some rock.

Each of those will have specific chord progressions that will be used. Jazz will lean toward the ii-V7-I progression and harmonize the melody notes using "fancy" chords, i.e. the harmonizing note that is needed will be inserted into the basic chord and the key will usually be in one of the flat keys, because, horns, sax, etc. like those keys. Soul would follow, or at least the gospel soul I know will follow a basic I IV V I progression. Fusion I do not play so leave that to the other guys.

Best thing I can recommend for you is to pull up some fake chord or lead sheet music and write bass lines for specific songs. Here is a good site for jazz progression. http://www.ralphpatt.com/Song.html Write bass lines for those songs AND then play that bass line that you wrote. The test of your bass line is will it play well - is it too full or does it need more chord tone notes. Did roots or R-5-R-5 do it? Or does it need more?

Right now arpeggios are where you need to spend your time. Write your bass line around the chord tones, aka the arpeggios.

Have fun.

[CALopes]

Thanks you two.
Usually when I do some original basslines or when I learn pop tunes (for my covers band) I get stick to the roots and fifths 'cos my fills and passing notes sound bad and cheap to my ears. Probably because of that, I'll study about chromatics and passing tones.
Do you think I should learn any specific tunes, or anything?

Btw, here is a tune from Mutya Buena that I play for my covers band. Maybe you can ear the problem: zSHARE - sapatos.mp3 (my bass is panned to the right)

MalcolmAmos: big help, bro. thanks, now it makes sense. Never thought about making the chords needed to the melody, I think always backwards.
I'll dig in arpeggios too!

[Billnc]

I would learn a few chord substitutions, it'll give you some new note choices.
Maybe instead of ii V7 I play ii bII7 I. You can replace I with iii or vi also. Just a few things to try. Answers to this type question can be of little help if too long. Give it a shot if this is new to you.

[mambo4]

removed duplicate post

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by CALopes

Maybe you can ear the problem: zSHARE - sapatos.mp3 (my bass is panned to the right)

I hear nothing wrong with that, its pretty solid.
There is certainly room for more sauce...but it works as is.
I'd be concerned with getting a little looser rhythmic feel; it feels a tad stiff.

For that kind of music, the best source for inspiration and analysis is James Jamerson. Get a copy of the book Standing in the Shadows of Motown and hit the woodshed!

Some dirt on chromatic runs:
For any blues based music (R&B, soul, jazz, classic rock etc)
they often happen in 5 places under a chord (numbers indicate scale tones relative to the root of the chord):

1.) Dom 7th or Min chord, rarely maj: b7 -7 -8ve (or 6-b7-7-8ve)
2.) Dom 7th or Min chord : 4-b5-5
3.) Major or Dom 7 : 3-4-b5-5
4.) Major : 5-b6-6
5.) min , Dom7: b3-3-4

these chromatic tones are usually used as runs from one chord tone to another, rarely emphasized on their own.
they can go up or down. They are particularly effective when you insert them into a patterns using the root, 5th or octave, for example:
1.) 8ve -5 -b7 -7 -8ve

and usually the rhythmic figure you play should be designed to really nail the next downbeat one the 1.

those 5 situations are not exhaustive...plenty of other occurrences in the wild!

[Russell L]

Scale steps can also lead you through progressions in the same way as chromatic tones. Of course, the most famous one would be from V to I when you play 5678, like in a country song.

Hey, if you ever play Take the A Train, get familiar with the D whole-tone scale. The second chord is D7aug.5. It's a must if you get a solo.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by mambo4

1.) Dom 7th or Min chord, rarely maj: b7 -7 -8ve (or 6-b7-7-8ve)
2.) Dom 7th or Min chord : 4-b5-5
3.) Major or Dom 7 : 3-4-b5-5
4.) Major : 5-b6-6
5.) min , Dom7: b3-3-4

these chromatic tones are usually used as runs from one chord tone to another, rarely emphasized on their own.
they can go up or down. They are particularly effective when you insert them into a patterns using the root, 5th or octave, for example:
1.) 8ve -5 -b7 -7 -8ve

and usually the rhythmic figure you play should be designed to really nail the next downbeat one the 1.

those 5 situations are not exhaustive...plenty of other occurrences in the wild!

Mambo - explain the 8ve, not sure what ve stands for -- beyone root in the next octave.

Also I live and breath interval numbers. R-3-5-8, etc. Running into trouble (writing the interval number) when the bass line goes back into the octave below - understand how to read/write the interval number when the bass line goes into the NEXT octave (9, 11, 13, etc.) but, how would I notate the interval when it goes into notes in a lower octave?

Up to this point I've been putting notations in the margin.

I know relying on standard notation will eliminate this problem, and I'm working on that as we speak.

Thanks,

[MNAirHead]

For a gigging life, memorizing modes and chords are NOT as useful as memorizing the I-VII chord positions and associated triads.

The jazz snobs will shun this, the reality is you're commonly paid for a root on the 1

putting the lines in context is more important than memorizing a bunch of disjointed info.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Mambo - explain the 8ve, not sure what ve stands for -- beyone root in the next octave.

It's merely a sloppy abreviation of 'ocatve'. 'Ve' stands for nothing. I can see the possible confusion. A simple '8' conveys the same info, I should probably stick to that.

how would I notate the interval when it goes into notes in a lower octave?

I know of no standard, and the fact is that any pattern that works leading to the 8 would function just as well an octave down (context depending). So I never thought to distinguish. Notating the 9,11,13 chord tones can sort of imply an octave up, but strictly speaking 9,11,13 only imply specific chord tones
( like the presence of the 3rd & 7th) but NOT specific voicings...9,11,13 can show up in any octave...

And MNairhead makes a very valid point: 80% of what a bassist does is hitting the root on the 1. So memorizing the inervalic patterns of root movement for common chord progressions is crucial, more so than this extra stuff. These days I think the hierarchy of ability like this:
1.) Nailing the roots
2.) Nailing the rhythm
3.) Other stuff like what's being disussed in this thread.

And the blunt truth is 1 & 2 are equal importance, 3 much less crucial...esp the larger the ensemble gets.

[CALopes]

Thanks for all of your tips, guys. I promise I'll follow them carefully.

Thanks and keep on playing

[sammyp]

Originally Posted by CALopes

Well, I'm playing bass for like almost an year.
I'm having some lessons more about groove and time keeping that I really really need.

So I have some questions about theory.
I have 3 different fingerings for 2 octave scales. I have the major scale, the dorian mode and the natural minor down. And then I think the rest of the modes as related to these scales.
My question is, should I kind of stop and get this really down for all of the modes or move on to the melodic minor?
I know it sounds silly, but I feel like I already can play it, I just can't really make it sound interesting, 'cos my choice of notes aren't the best. Are arpeggios the answer?

This leads me to another question. Improvising...
I can improvise over 251's, 1625's and the 12 bar blues, but I'd like to know other common chord progressions to study around jazz, fusion, soul and (why not) some rock.

If you have some tips about what you think its important, please tell me.

Tanks in advance

the other guys are correct .....get into chord theory etc .....also sinse you're into modes ...realize that knowing major scales all over the neck alows to to kill 7 birds with one stone ....you now know all the modes as well once you learn to appy this concept!

ie: there is no need to practice a specific dorian scale .....it the second mode of some major scale you just need to know which major you're working with!

say you've worked your butt off on Gmajor ...all over the bass ...now you're tackling A dorian .....hmmm ....it's' the same notes and fingerings you just start on A not G

[CALopes]

I guys!!
I got the past months messing with the modes and arpeggios, like you guys said and I'm glad I did it. I'm now starting to get more free across all fretboard and it's now more easy to learn tunes.
Also I'm now trying to work on my time keeping and my articulation. Trying to get everything smooth and solid. Besides that I started this week trying to learn how to read and I can already sense that it will improve my timing.

I have a couple of recordings of (Portuguese, sorry for that) tunes I have to play on my covers band.

Maybe you could tell what you think I should work on right now, the part of my playing you find more urgent to improve (time? articulation? technique? ...?).

Links:
zSHARE - R__dio Macau - O Anzol _COVER_.mp3
zSHARE - Jorge Palma - Fr__gil _COVER_.mp3

Thanks in advance.

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

The jazz snobs will shun this, the reality is you're commonly paid for a root on the 1

I'm a "jazz snob" and would not disagree with that reality.

[Russell L]

>>>It's merely a sloppy abreviation of 'ocatve'. 'Ve' stands for nothing.<<<

Also seen as "8va" in written music.

[CALopes]

Originally Posted by Russell L

>>>It's merely a sloppy abreviation of 'ocatve'. 'Ve' stands for nothing.<<<

Also seen as "8va" in written music.

It comes form the Romanic languages. Like the portuguese language where octave is "oitava" and "oito" means eight, so you write "8" and add "va".

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by CALopes

Maybe you could tell what you think I should work on right now, the part of my playing you find more urgent to improve (time? articulation? technique? ...?).

Links:
zSHARE - R__dio Macau - O Anzol _COVER_.mp3
zSHARE - Jorge Palma - Fr__gil _COVER_.mp3

Thanks in advance.

Both examples are pretty good. I would say that on #2 you are a little sloppy on the down beat in places. Thank kind of funk really needs a tight "1". But honestly I'd work on joining a band if you haven't already.

Nice to hear these styles in portugese

[Groove Master]

Learn the 3-7 movement in the chords progression. This is the most efficient way to hit the big notes!!!!

As an example in a ii-v-i in the key of C maj: F (the 3rd of Dmin7 becomes the 7 of G7) and C (the 7th of Dmin7 goes down to B the third of G7). Then the F goes down to E (the third of C Maj7 and B becomes the 7 of C Maj7. These linear lines based on the motion of the 3rd and the 7 of each chord in a prog, mix with arpeggios and scales tones are the fundation of strong melodic/harmonic lines.