In need for some impressive stuff.

[ConU]

We're on the same page bro' I just find it interesting to hear the definition of "pro" musician from different people...it could be way off topic,and it could not,if you go back to the original post.There is professional entertainers and professional musicians...HUGE diff.IMOThere are a certain amount of pre-requisite skills required...you can be making zillions,if you don't have those skills,you can call yourself a pro-whatever,but don't call yourself a pro-musician.

[Josh Curry]

OK, so are we in agreement that for the simplicity of this forum, a "Pro" is someone who has a great amount of knowledge and demonstrates a suffecient level of skill or prowess with their instrument, and not necessarily someone who makes a lot of money playing shows or teaching?

I'm not ripping on anyone in particular, but I've definitely seen some guys who consider themselves Pro's who totally suck and don't know the difference between m7 and M7.

[Dondi]

We are starting to sound like Clinton defining, "it." We are straying pretty far.

[ConU]

Originally posted by BassWhore


I'm not ripping on anyone in particular, but I've definitely seen some guys who consider themselves Pro's who totally suck and don't know the difference between m7 and M7.

[Howard K]

Well I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt Dondi may have underestimated the level of dedication many of us amateur players have.
Although, Dondi, apologies for going right off on one there

Walk into a pit audition and sightread from the book @tempo, no mistakes,with only conducting for time, that's a pro... whether he gets paid or not.

That IS indeed professionalism, at a VERY high level.

Scenario: I work with a woman who plays violin. She, used to perform regularly in a quartet or whatever, playing from sheets in front of an audience. Yet she confesses she couldnt improvise a note, on the spot. So she's been a professional as per this example, but would be useless in a gigging band.

I think professionals are people that the general public would pay to have any given job done in what they believe is an expert manner.

Yes! This definition works absolutley for me.

Re: weddings and functions. I know some guys who play in a 60/70's pop/rock function band (they are over in Czechslovakia (sp.?!!) in a few weeks to play at a corporate function, all expenses plus a grand in hand (not bad huh!)
I've seen them play twice and to be blunt they aint all that great. They pull it off, but if it were me I'd want to give a better band performance. They're not as 'like the record' as I'd want a band to be for the money they get.

My point is that there's many levels of professional and you dont have to be a sight reading, jazz improvising, slap, pop, tap, finger, pick wielding genius to qualify!

[Dondi]

Ladies and gentlemen,
Why do any of you think that skill, dedication, professionalism, and ethics automatically defines the professional. A number of you have noted that they saw "professional" bands that weren't that good. Others of you have claimed to play at a professional level and you don't play music for a living.
Music as a profession (at least in popular music) is just like life in other fields; don't you think that plenty of professional jobs have been gotten by the employers brothers-in-law or by union cronies? Someone who has a connection will often get a gig over the much more qualified people who respond to an ad for auditions. "The fix" is in with music as often as in any other business. Yes, music is a business.
Don't expect criteria for professional music jobs to make sense either. For example, I keep seeing ads for bassists that must have a good handle on things like 1970's progressive rock, then the ad says that the acceptable age group is 20 -30 years old. Instead of wasting time being mad, I just move on to the next possibility. You know the world ain't fair, gang.

[Howard K]

Music as a profession (at least in popular music) is just like life in other fields; don't you think that plenty of professional jobs have been gotten by the employers brothers-in-law or by union cronies? Someone who has a connection will often get a gig over the much more qualified people who respond to an ad for auditions.

All very true.

And not forgetting "the look" and personality...

You don't get many 50+ years olds playing heavy metal or hip-hop for example... or you could just have the wrong trainers on the day!

Similarly you might be the best player who auditions, but the rest of the band just don't like something about you for some completely random reason!

I auditioned for a signed band last year some time. I didnt get the gig. I played spot on (very simple material), depsite the band playing a different version of the track they gave to audition - I didnt get the impression it was purposeful either!
Then when I went to see the band a few months later the bass player was no better or worse a player than I was, but he certainly fitted better - he looked more appropriate than I would have.

[Josh Curry]

I had a similar experience to Howard. There is a band that is very well known locally here in Sacramento, no names, and I met the guys, I didn't even have to play. They said that they knew the material wasn't hard, they needed someone who fit with them. Needless to say I never heard back from those guys, they were looking for a punk lookin kid who played a Fender or Ernie Ball. And that's totally not me. I fit more in the funk or jazz category with my 6-string fretless. Skill isn't everything in a situation like that. Oh, and I've seen them since then, no comment.

[ConU]

That's what I meant originally,there's professional entertainers,and there's professional musicans.Just because somebody's in a popular band making$$$$does'nt qualify as a "pro" musician.

[Dondi]

We are killing each other with definitions here.
Can we standardize are definitions so we can communicate with each other more clearly?
Try my glossary of common sense concepts:
A Professional: is one who makes money performing a service, as opposed to a charity worker or a hobbyist who receives no compensation.
An entertainer: is one who entertains us.
A Professional entertainer: gets paid to entertain us.
A professional musical entertainer: performs music, usually by singing, and may accompany himself on a musical instrument, or dancing.
A professional musician: One who gets paid to play a musical instrument.

Quiz: Then what would you call the guys in "Kiss."

[ConU]

Originally posted by Dondi

Quiz: Then what would you call the guys in "Kiss."

Very rich.
Bad plastic surgery jobs.
Professional entertainers.
Non-musicians.