Nefertit, Miles Davis Quintet

[numukeba]

Does anyone know the structural basis of Ron Carter's work on the title track "Nefertiti". I know Carter's discipline requires improvisation, and yet clearly there is a basic motif he is working from in this particular recording. I'm not looking for tablature; I can read well enough. This is a theory question I need help with.

[Ed Fuqua]

Structural basis, ***? Are you talking about the chord changes for the tune?

[numukeba]

I'm talking the motif he's playing off of, y'know? In the song, the melody is the vehicle for the rhythm section to get their groove on, right? So Ron Carter's doing something based on, what, a basic riff? I mean, do you hear that basic theme to his work on this song, and if so, can you shed a little insight? The chord changes matter little to me, it's that theme he's using to improvise off of that I want to know about. That's ***. I already know there's no tab-I don't need tab, I can read- I'm hoping someone can respond who's developed their ear and knows that basic theme.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by numukeba

I'm talking the motif he's playing off of, y'know? In the song, the melody is the vehicle for the rhythm section to get their groove on, right? So Ron Carter's doing something based on, what, a basic riff?

No. The melody is related to a set of composed chord changes, the harmony of the song. Ron is improvising a line based on those chord changes AND the melodic line.

Originally Posted by NUMBEARS

I mean, do you hear that basic theme to his work on this song, and if so, can you shed a little insight? The chord changes matter little to me, it's that theme he's using to improvise off of that I want to know about.

It's been awhile since I pulled out NEFERTITI, Ron may indeed be building a line off of sequences. But those sequences are going to relate to the harmony (chords, remember them?) of the tune. If that's what you're interested in, why not just go ahead an transcribe what he's doing? But if what you're interested in is learning to play the tune like a jazz musician, then you need to understand how to build a line around and through the harmony.

Originally Posted by COMFORTABLYNUMB

That's ***. I already know there's no tab-I don't need tab, I can read- I'm hoping someone can respond who's developed their ear and knows that basic theme.

OK. But it's not about reading. How much jazz do you play? How much jazz do you listen to? The only reason I ask is because you don't seem to be asking these questions from a position of much familairity with the idiom. You don't have much information in your profile, but I would hazard a guess that I've been playing this kind of music longer than you've been alive (and the first time I played NEFERTITI on a gig {albeit not with much depth or intent} was in 1976). So, while you certainly can get as insistent as you would care to about what you think you want, you may be better served by listening to the suggestions of those who have more experience with music answering what you really need.

Or not, totally up to you.

[baba]

Oh no, not another Fuqua smack down! Kids, close your eyes.

[Aaron Saunders]

No, baba, they have to learn...so it doesn't happen to them .

Ed's right -- you don't seem to be too familiar with jazz (or at least, anything past listening to it.)

Honestly, on my recording, I can't hear Ron for sh** -- it's one of those remasters with the horns cranked and the bass left in the dust. In the few moments where his playing does poke through, he just seems to be improvising on the changes -- there's a lot of rhythmic playing in there where he's hooking up with Tony, but it's mostly walking.

[Ed Fuqua]

Just if anybody's innersted (although it seems MIRIAM MAKEBA has bailed...)

Some happening ****.

[numukeba]

Humbling. Okay, so outside of the changes, there's no other structure other than the one Carter's making up as he goes? This is what I was wondering. I am new to this. Stuff like the blues is simple, but there doesn't seem to be the freedom for a bassist the way there is in jazz. So I'm studying. It's challenging. But the thing is, I need something to lively up the practice sessions. I figured learning what a player's doing (although I know it's not about simply reading like in classical) would better serve to show me the application of all the theory I'm learning. You Fuqua, you, you know what I mean.

[tkozal]

numu, Ron Carter has written a nice basic intro to walking bass lines
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merch...Category_Code=

well worth it, given you are beginning in jazz.

There is also a Wayne Shorter play-along, that has Nefertiti on it, Ron Carter plays bass in the trio, and you can isolate Carters bass in the right channel if you desire, plus you get the lead sheets for the tunes.
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merch...Category_Code=

[Ed Fuqua]

So do see now where the "***?" comes from? It's like you're asking "I want to drive to Australia, do I have enough air in my tires?" I'm just trying to tell you there's an ocean you're gonna have to get across first.

There's a lot of good information at this site, you should start by checking out both JAZZBO's introductory tutorial to scale and chord construction, then CHRIS FITZGERALD's tutorial on beginning walking line construction. You can find them in the ARTICLES/LESSONS section of this website.Those are kinda the basics.

And then in the MUSIC THEORY forum, there's a sticky that has a lot of links to topics you will probably find of interest; you can either post questions as needed in the threads (in which case they will come live again) or post a new topic.

Originally Posted by WILLIAM NUMUKEBA THACKERAY

I figured learning what a player's doing ...would better serve to show me the application of all the theory I'm learning

Well, yes and no. What's going to do you some good is transcribing what's going on so that
1. you get what's happening in your ear
2. you start working on the ability to HEAR something and then make what you HEAR (internally) come out on your instrument.

Because ultimatley, you don't want to recreate what Ron did on NEFERTITI, you want to be able to play what YOU hear. YOUR voice, YOUR line, YOUR conception.

Theory is fine, I always advocate knowing over not knowing. But the only theory that counts is what's in your ears and under your fingers. I would also recommend reading the article DOING IT THE SLOW WAY by Joe Solomon, it's also in ARTICLES/LESSONS. Theory is only one part of what you need to work on, of great importance for an improvising musician is EAR TRAINING. Being able to hear with enough clarity so that you can identify what you are hearing and get that sound out on your instrument. Conception, understanding and physical approach; the three legs of the tripod.

You're shooting to get to the point that ANY harmonic structure is just a framework for you to hang your improvisation on, if you hear something clearly enough that you can communicate that to the other musicins you are playing with, you can introduce material that is only loosely based on the composer's chords.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by numukeba

I figured learning what a player's doing (although I know it's not about simply reading like in classical) would better serve to show me the application of all the theory I'm learning.

And that was right, as far as it went. Where I think you went astray was in assuming that what Carter was doing would fit into a kind of pigeonhole you already had handy. That's not a dis or a knock; that kind of assumption is easy to make.

What might help you would be to try to transcribe as much of the line as you can, then analyze how what's happening is relating to the harmony. Or, failing that (since I know this stuff can be hard to transcribe, especially when the recording doesn't exactly put the bass out front), start by finding a book that already has some transcriptions, preferably one that can also help relate the lines being played to the larger musical context. I'm not fully up on what's out there these days, but I do remember looking at Chuck Sher's Improvisor's Bass Method (or something like that) a few years back and thinking it was well done that way.

http://www.shermusic.com/tibm.htm

Maybe there are other and better ones now, but I remember thinking this one was pretty good.

[jady]

Ron Carter playes "outside" the traditional walking parts a lot during this period. As a matter of fact, everyone plays really "outside". If you listen to tracks like Prince of Darkness, It's almost like a free improve at times but the melody and changes are always there somehow......

Thats why this group has been called the greatest jazz combo EVER!!!!

[numukeba]

Okay, thanks. I'll check out all those things. I know scales and chord construction, but what to do next, that was my concern. You Fuqua, you, that was a great piece of advice, seriously. I've considered that, going by ear. I can do it to stuff like Pino does, but when it comes to jazz, it ain't as easy. To clarify, I don't at all want to plagiarize my man Ron, don't want to be all mechanical with it. I want to analyze. If I understand one thing about jazz (even if not alive in '76), it's that the music truly is like zen;and just like satori, what I hear from these players is the culmination of an arduous discipline. There is no respect for mere copying, like a painter who merely emulates an Ernie Barnes. By the way, if you get someone in the General Instruction forum who phrases a question rather naively, would you erroneously surmise he WASN'T a novice, or would you assume the obvious and handle the situation gracefully? Of what benefit are those who know a thing if all they can say is ***, glorying in their little cyberarchy as they spew trite little cliches in their quotes that only serve to illuminate their hypocrisy, ample egos, and limited capacities ( or do the prodigies all hang out here in the General Instruction forum?

[WillBuckingham]

If you had any sense at all, which it doesn't seem you do, you'd (in this order) delete the last part of your post with the jab at Ed, thank everyone for their advice, fill out your profile, then if you're interested in studying jazz, find a professional jazz musician who's willing to teach you (probably being respectful and appreciative will help in this regard) and start from square one.

EDIT: Too late!

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by numukeba

By the way, if you get someone in the General Instruction forum who phrases a question rather naively, would you erroneously surmise he WASN'T a novice, or would you assume the obvious and handle the situation gracefully? Of what benefit are those who know a thing if all they can say is ***, glorying in their little cyberarchy as they spew trite little cliches in their quotes that only serve to illuminate their hypocrisy, ample egos, and limited capacities ( or do the prodigies all hang out here in the General Instruction forum?

Please feel free to quote any hypocritical statement I've made. Likewise, please illuminate what you feel is my "limited capacity".

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by numukeba

Okay, thanks. I'll check out all those things. I know scales and chord construction, but what to do next, that was my concern. You Fuqua, you, that was a great piece of advice, seriously. I've considered that, going by ear. I can do it to stuff like Pino does, but when it comes to jazz, it ain't as easy. To clarify, I don't at all want to plagiarize my man Ron, don't want to be all mechanical with it. I want to analyze. If I understand one thing about jazz (even if not alive in '76), it's that the music truly is like zen;and just like satori, what I hear from these players is the culmination of an arduous discipline. There is no respect for mere copying, like a painter who merely emulates an Ernie Barnes. By the way, if you get someone in the General Instruction forum who phrases a question rather naively, would you erroneously surmise he WASN'T a novice, or would you assume the obvious and handle the situation gracefully? Of what benefit are those who know a thing if all they can say is ***, glorying in their little cyberarchy as they spew trite little cliches in their quotes that only serve to illuminate their hypocrisy, ample egos, and limited capacities ( or do the prodigies all hang out here in the General Instruction forum?

You were doing well for a while in this post, up to the whiny personal attack part. Things went downhill pretty fast from there. Whine less, listen more.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by numukeba

Okay, thanks. I'll check out all those things. I know scales and chord construction, but what to do next, that was my concern. You Fuqua, you, that was a great piece of advice, seriously. I've considered that, going by ear. I can do it to stuff like Pino does, but when it comes to jazz, it ain't as easy. To clarify, I don't at all want to plagiarize my man Ron, don't want to be all mechanical with it. I want to analyze. If I understand one thing about jazz (even if not alive in '76), it's that the music truly is like zen;and just like satori, what I hear from these players is the culmination of an arduous discipline. There is no respect for mere copying, like a painter who merely emulates an Ernie Barnes. By the way, if you get someone in the General Instruction forum who phrases a question rather naively, would you erroneously surmise he WASN'T a novice, or would you assume the obvious and handle the situation gracefully? Of what benefit are those who know a thing if all they can say is ***, glorying in their little cyberarchy as they spew trite little cliches in their quotes that only serve to illuminate their hypocrisy, ample egos, and limited capacities ( or do the prodigies all hang out here in the General Instruction forum?

Welcome to "old school" teaching. Back before the Sesame Street generation, there was a teacher at Berklee that didn't listen to BS from anyone. In the words of John LaPorta . . . "take out your horn, . . . ***hole". That's what he'd say to anyone spouting crap before they could show that they could back it up. The "old school" teachers would basically tell you how much you suck in order to motivate you to learn. However, the Sesame Street generation needs praise at every step. No matter how much they suck.

Ed's giving you some good advice. Listen to him, listen to the recording.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by jady

Ron Carter playes "outside" the traditional walking parts a lot during this period. As a matter of fact, everyone plays really "outside". If you listen to tracks like Prince of Darkness, It's almost like a free improve at times but the melody and changes are always there somehow......

Thats why this group has been called the greatest jazz combo EVER!!!!

This is true - the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD plumps for "Live at the Plugged Nickel" by this quintet as the best Jazz CD ever and calls it the "Rosetta Stone of Modern Jazz" !!

I'm not sure this is a good place to start for a beginner to Jazz - this quintet had been working together for many years and were pushing the boundaries - in some ways, to try to understand this stuff first, is like climbing the highest peak in the world before you've tried going up a small hill!!

I've been trying to play Jazz for about 7/8 years now and while I'm nowhere near Ed's level of knowledge and playing ability, I feel I can understand a lot of Jazz basslines and hear where those bass players are coming from - why they played what they did.

But I listen to "Live at the Plugged Nickel" and I have no idea what Ron Carter is playing or how that group keeps together - it constantly amazes me ....

[Bruce Lindfield]

From the liner notes to 'Nefertiti', by John Ephland :

"The restlessness of this band had everything to do with the suspension of the usual tempos,bar lines, and harmonics normally associated with bebop as well as the embracing of open-ended melodic fragments and rhythmic sophistication rarely heard before or since.

More to the point, the music of Nefertiti represents a significant in-between place where Miles' development as a Jazz musician was at a breaking point, between his rich musicial past and the future/present we have come to know.

In a sense this music is a culmination, a final synthesis of all that had come before. And yet it was more; for it pointed outward even as it drew from tradition."

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by numukeba

I'm talking the motif he's playing off of, y'know? In the song, the melody is the vehicle for the rhythm section to get their groove on, right? So Ron Carter's doing something based on, what, a basic riff? I mean, do you hear that basic theme to his work on this song, and if so, can you shed a little insight? The chord changes matter little to me, it's that theme he's using to improvise off of that I want to know about. That's ***. I already know there's no tab-I don't need tab, I can read- I'm hoping someone can respond who's developed their ear and knows that basic theme.

thematic development and jazz don't mix.