New fretless player her with a few questions

[smgleitch]

O.k. so I have been playing bass and guitar for some 15 years now. Nothing professional with just a few lessons. Played in a band in college with regular shows (lead guitar not bass) and recently played with some guys doing country and classic rock for about a year on bass. So I have some experience but would say far from a professional. Have always loved the look sound and feel of a fretless bass but was always very intimidated by it. Now I am a bit older and have some cash to spend I bought a nice warwick 4 string unlined fretless and I love it. Cant seem to put it down. Now I still have a regular jazz bass that I still play but am trying to spend most of my time with my fretless.

So here is my question(s). I hear people talking about cents when speaking about being in or out of tune. What is a cent? I have been playing with my tuner on and will stop in the middle of a riff or string of notes to see if I am playing in tune. Is this a good idea has anyone else ever done this? Finally how in tune should I expect to be? I am playing by myself sometimes with a cd but it seem hard to tell how in tune i am by ear. Will this get better? Can you train your ears or is it a you got a good ear or you don't? I guess what I am asking is to what intonation should I expect. When I start playing with someone else and I am still a little bit off, not a half step or anything but just a red light or two to the sharp or flat on my tuner is anyone going to notice or am I going to sound like @#$% and get told to put that thing away and get a fretted bass.

Down at the lower end of the fretboard I feel good about it in the middle I am pretty good very close I would say, but still struggling above the 12 th fret.

Thanks for any input you have.

[Billnc]

My words of advice would be forget the tuner. I played tunes I was already familiar with starting out. Get comfortable with the sound of octaves, and check that they are in tune. I might do something like play all the E's and check them with the open string. Next 5ths. Again checking against open strings to start. 3rds and tenths next. WHen position playing check various notes against open strings.

Don't get bogged down in worry. If you work a bit on intonation every day it'll all come together, if you over worry every note you'll mentally lock up.

[smgleitch]

Not really really worrying about it to much just trying to avoid forming a bad habit and trying to figure out just how close to perfect intonation anyone can really expect to get from a fretless instrument. Billnc I like your idea for intonation practice that makes sense to me. I have been checking against the open strings at times.

Does anyone have a good reference guide on how to set up intonation on a bass. Would like to learn how to do a professional set up on my bass but instead of paying someone else to do it would like to learn how to do it myself. Figure it is best in the long run to know how to.

[Gawd]

To set up your intonation compare the 5th and octave harmonics to their respective notes. Or have a drone of a pitch that matches the 5th of the string, and check the spot where you would like that note to be against the drone. If it's flat, move the saddle towards the neck a bit, if sharp move it away.

Remember though that benefit of fretless isn't to play perfectly in tune, but to control intonation. Just use your ears and intuition, sometimes a slightly sharp/flat note fits better than an in tune note.

[Hookus]

Really, with a little practice, you should be able to play perfectly in tune, anywhere on the neck. I mean orchestra string instruments are fretless, and I would say they keep pretty tuned and intoned.

Play with other musicians, play scales, play along with whatever. This will help you more than just playing by yourself, unless you have a pretty developed ear for intervals to begin with.

[Tim Skaggs]

All good advice above. #1 above all you already have going on; practice. You say you can't put it down, so there's no doubt you are going to improve. Don't worry too much about "cents". Low frequencies are a little more forgiving if you are off a few "cents". It's a unit of measure that most ears can't hear until you get several cents off the pitch in question. I don't put much stock in Wikipedia, but it looks like they got this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)

Intonation setup on a fretless required an object with a thin profile, like a credit card or a plastic knife. Tune the open string and then press down at the 12th "dot" with the credit card edge or knife and check the tuning. If it's sharp, the saddle need to go away from the neck; if it's flat the saddle needs to go toward the neck. Check, adjust, re-tune, check again.

Here's a fair guide;
http://www.tunemybass.com/bass_setup/

[NaH]

Great thread. I have a similar question (which is why I'm posting here). Is it normal for us "new to fretless" folks to have more trouble with the D & G strings? For me, its almost like the G string is out of tune (open is fine of course). I can get it to sound properly, but its like I need to be dead on. If I just turn my finger slightly it gets all wavy. B, E, and A never give me that kind of trouble. Is it the way I finger it, pressure, or ?

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by smgleitch

Finally how in tune should I expect to be? I am playing by myself sometimes with a cd but it seem hard to tell how in tune i am by ear. Will this get better? Can you train your ears or is it a you got a good ear or you don't? I guess what I am asking is to what intonation should I expect.

I am also relatively new to fretless. It's a cool instrument, and IME there's a certain quality to it that either speaks to you, or it doesn't. It definitely speaks to me - and obviously it does to you too.

That said, one of the very best bits of advice anyone can you give you is: Use your ears, use your ears, use your ears! Yes, your ear can definitely improve over time - with consistent, proper ear training.

As to the intonation issue, make absolutely sure that you get a professional-quality set-up - by a tech or a luthier that really knows what he's doing. If you really want to learn how to do it for yourself, maybe he'll let you watch him work - if you offer to pay him something extra. But either way, don't neglect the set-up (including the intonation). It is crucial.

Don't be quite so concerned with what the strobo-tuner tells you - at least once you're playing with other musicians. Get your intonation and your tuning set, then forget it.

Relative intonation (relative to the other musicians) is far more important than absolute intonation (perfectly in sync with the tuner). Bottom line: If it sounds in tune, then it is in tune. Hence the essential importance of developing that ear.

Make sense?

MM

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Hookus

Really, with a little practice, you should be able to play perfectly in tune, anywhere on the neck. I mean orchestra string instruments are fretless, and I would say they keep pretty tuned and intoned.

IMHO there is no such thing as 'perfectly in tune'. There will always bethose nasty cents. 'In tune' is 'approximately', even with professionals. And it does not, IME, come with 'a little practice', but with very, very much hard work. Most of that has to do with making corrections very fast while playing.

Some good advice has already been given here, like practising perfect intervals (octave, 4th, 5th) and playing along with just about anything.

IMO and IME the single most important advice is to not watch your hand and make all corrections by ear.

For the rest:http://books.google.nl/books?id=RCfo...page&q&f=false

[James Simonson]

Anytime I back off and play it safe with the fretless it sounds worse. To make it sing you really have to dive in with a lot of confidence.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by smgleitch

What is a cent?

A cent is that which, if you had one for every time a fretless player played out of tune, you'd be rich.

I've studied three fretless instruments: Cello, electric bass, and upright. Of the three, fretless electric seems like the hardest to play in tune. I can't fathom why that should be, and maybe other players experience it differently.

Here's my approach to intonation. I don't consider it to be an ear problem, but a technique problem. I can tell if I am playing out of tune by hearing the notes, but trying to correct them on the fly would be a sloppy mess. Instead, if I hear that I'm playing a note consistently out of tune, then I look at what I am doing wrong with my technique, and work on improving it. My intonation, and technique, have gotten consistently better over the last few years. I've been doing most of this work on upright, which is now my main instrument, but the approach should work just as well on electric.

I play a lined fretless -- since I de-fretted it myself. My fret lines are almost the same color as the fingerboard. Of course I don't watch my hands while I play, but I admit to sneaking a peek when it's a big jump to a "money note."

Another approach that is taught on cello and upright is to choose fingerings and shifting to minimize the number of "risky" shifts. This might just be a matter of trying different fingerings for the same passages and seeing what works.

I agree about diving in and playing with confidence. Why else play the bass?

[guroove]

11 posts on intonation on fretless, and no one mentions vibrato? It can help with long notes above the 12th fret. You can train your ears, and what sounds good to you now might sound bad to you later. You should record your practicing, and use every opportunity available to work on your internal pitch. Singing along with the radio, CDs, mp3s, etc.

[PJSShearer]

Originally Posted by James Simonson

Anytime I back off and play it safe with the fretless it sounds worse. To make it sing you really have to dive in with a lot of confidence.

+ 1 - jump in with both feet and think "full steam ahead and never mind the torpedoes!".

[BassChuck]

A "cent" is one hundredth of a semi-tone. So there are 100 divisions between C and C#..... 1200 divisions of an octave. Is a cent a small interval. Yes, very small. Most people can't hear intonation problems smaller than 3 cents, of course the musical context does have a impact on that. An octave that is out of tune by 2 cents is fairly obvious. A melodic jump to a non chordal tone probably is more forgiving.

Than said, just let you ear guide you. Being aware, paying attention is the biggest aid. Steve Bailey has a wonderful book out about playing in tune on fretless, and I would reccommend it to anyone.

But listening is the best teacher. And knowing that intonation is not a perfect thing. It's a jungle out there and standard pitch is just a really nice suggestion, but not an absolute. Like most things in music, if it sounds good, you're on the right track.

[f.clef]

Want some fun?

Take your tuner. Use it to precisely tune up your most rigorously intonated, fretted bass. Play something on that bass through the tuner. Yikes. What happened???!!! Finger pressure? Attack strength/position? Finger bend?

[Stick_Player]

Finally a response to "what is a cent?"

I think you can widen the range a bit - especially with vibrato.

As to vibrato, traditional string vibrato (as I learned) is: at-pitch to below-pitch to at-pitch. The opposite of what a fretted instrument can do.

The amount of detuning is personal. Probably no more than 25 cents (1/8-step).

The speed of is also personal. Somewhere around 8 modulations per quarter-note at 60 BPM might be the goal.

Start by setting a metronome at 60BPM and slowly vibrate quarter-notes, very smoothly. Think of a sine wave. Play a whole-note scale up an octave or two and back down. Using a tuner would not be a bad idea this will help with tuning. I use tuners when recording fretless or upright especially when using headphones, SPL can effect pitch perception. Practice not only major scales but the minor scales and modes.

Double that modulation to eighth-notes the next week.

Then to 16ths, 32nds and finally 64ths.

Don't vibrate above pitch (that's goal) only below.

Once your muscle memory takes over, practice at different tempos but don't change the speed of the vibrato - that should stay reasonably consistent (unless you want to sound like Dolly Parton).

Don't be afraid to be aggressive with a fretless instrument.

[uethanian]

Originally Posted by NaH

Great thread. I have a similar question (which is why I'm posting here). Is it normal for us "new to fretless" folks to have more trouble with the D & G strings? For me, its almost like the G string is out of tune (open is fine of course). I can get it to sound properly, but its like I need to be dead on. If I just turn my finger slightly it gets all wavy. B, E, and A never give me that kind of trouble. Is it the way I finger it, pressure, or ?

i feel like there's two reasons for this. one is that high notes are less forgiving than low ones in terms of intonation. a piccolo can sound real awful if it's 10 cents off, but the same error on a tuba isn't too noticeable.

second reason is due to the player's position to the instrument. because the neck isn't perfectly horizontal, and the fretting hand/arm isn't perfectly perpendicular to the neck, fingering tends to drift as you cross strings. the shape and rotation of the hand is also constantly changing. these problems are exacerbated on higher strings because the bass edge of the fretboard is farther away and it's harder to judge visually where the frets would cross the board.

just the nature of the instrument, and just a matter of practice i think. doing box exercises would help, but like others have said in the thread, focus on listening rather than looking and it will become automatic.

[SLivinghouse]

Maybe learn a little from upright players since we've been dealing with this for 300 years or so.
1) Practice scales with a drone note that is in tune. Use your computer with midi SW to create an endless drone in every key. I think Audacity would work as well. Also practice intervals this way too. It will develop your overall musicianship as a side benefit.
2) Try vomit studied. Look up in double bass section.
3) Practice slowly with long notes to better hear intonation.
4) do fingerings consistently
5 practice good technique (up on tips, thumb loosely behind neck, etc.)
6 be patient and persistent

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by uethanian

i feel like there's two reasons for this. one is that high notes are less forgiving than low ones in terms of intonation. a piccolo can sound real awful if it's 10 cents off, but the same error on a tuba isn't too noticeable.

Yep.

second reason is due to the player's position to the instrument. because the neck isn't perfectly horizontal, and the fretting hand/arm isn't perfectly perpendicular to the neck, fingering tends to drift as you cross strings. the shape and rotation of the hand is also constantly changing. these problems are exacerbated on higher strings because the bass edge of the fretboard is farther away and it's harder to judge visually where the frets would cross the board.

just the nature of the instrument, and just a matter of practice i think. doing box exercises would help, but like others have said in the thread, focus on listening rather than looking and it will become automatic.

Nope.

On fretless you will never become good without consistent fingering. So perpendicular fingers are a must all over the fingerboard. No drifting! The hand should not rotate, neither should the wrist.

Let your arm/hand dangle at your side. Bring it up to halfway the neck of the bass without changes to either hand or wrist. There you have your fretting hand. Keep it that way all over the fingerboard. Do not squeeze. If you have to compromise somewhere, let the thumb drift to a position that feels natural to you, but always keep the thumb pad flat against the back of the neck (execpt in very high positions). Do not flex the wrist (any further, you flexed it already) or bend it sideways.

Rotation will come from elbow and shoulder cooperating. This is no risk if they are kept in a relaxed, neutral position (neither extended nor flexed to the full) and is made possible by:
- strappng the bass mid-high (neck pocket on the belly button) in a 30-45 degree angle
- resting the bass on the right side of the abdomen (for righthanded players) and the right side hipbone, to keep the neck away from the left shoulder to some extent (and to keep the bass from wiggling on the abdomen);
- flexing the elbow to a neutral position of about 90 degrees with the hand halfway the neck and keeping it a little away from the body allows the rotation of the hand (necessary to keep it perpendicular with the strings) to be passed on to the shoulder

To experience what I mean: Fully flex your elbow and turn your hand both ways. Then extend it to just over 90 degrees and turn your hand again .

[uethanian]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Nope.

On fretless you will never become good without consistent fingering. So perpendicular fingers are a must all over the fingerboard. No drifting! The hand should not rotate, neither should the wrist.

Let your arm/hand dangle at your side. Bring it up to halfway the neck of the bass without changes to either hand or wrist. There you have your fretting hand. Keep it that way all over the fingerboard. Do not squeeze. If you have to compromise somewhere, let the thumb drift to a position that feels natural to you, but always keep the thumb pad flat against the back of the neck (execpt in very high positions). Do not flex the wrist (any further, you flexed it already) or bend it sideways.

Rotation will come from elbow and shoulder cooperating. This is no risk if they are kept in a relaxed, neutral position (neither extended nor flexed to the full) and is made possible by:
- strappng the bass mid-high (neck pocket on the belly button) in a 30-45 degree angle
- resting the bass on the right side of the abdomen (for righthanded players) and the right side hipbone, to keep the neck away from the left shoulder to some extent (and to keep the bass from wiggling on the abdomen);
- flexing the elbow to a neutral position of about 90 degrees with the hand halfway the neck and keeping it a little away from the body allows the rotation of the hand (necessary to keep it perpendicular with the strings) to be passed on to the shoulder

To experience what I mean: Fully flex your elbow and turn your hand both ways. Then extend it to just over 90 degrees and turn your hand again .

i guess what i was trying to say (in more or less words) is that things change both physically and visually across strings. i agree with what you say about technique, but personally, even if i make my arm perpendicular with the neck i still tend to drift a bit when i cross strings. so an IME thing, definitely.