newb question about scales

[kingj123]

what exactly are scales used for? after learning some major and minor scales I was left with the feeling of "ok.....now what?" what am I missing? can I use scales to help me find notes when trying to learn a song by ear? I mean how do I put scales to use besides just learning them?


thanks in advanced for the help. I really love the bass and really want to learn all I can.

[Spin Doctor]

Scales make up the body of any bassline. There are chords contained within any scale form. For example, in a C major scale: C D E F G A B, you have a set of seven, 4 note chords that can be made from these notes

Cmaj 7, Dmin7, E min7, Fmaj 7, G(dominant)7, Amin7, B half diminished.

Each of these chords corresponds to a related mode. So if you play all the notes in a C major scale starting on “C” this is the Ionian mode and is the “classic” major scale sound. When people thing of a major scale they are usually thinking of the Ionian mode.

Now, if you play the notes of the C major scale staring on the D, then that note sequence will sound minor and it is. It’s the Dorian minor. These related scale names are called modes of the parent scale, which is C major. There are 7 modes, Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolidian, Aeolian and Locrian.



So modes could be defined as “the same information presented in a different order “

So to answer your question, the reason you need to know this stuff is so you can get around on the fret board and learn to recognize the intervallic relationship by ear so that you know what you are doing when you play it. And you can learn music quickly and without using some lame assed tabs.

For example, if you become familiar with the Mixolydian mode, you will realize that it will fit over 90% of all rock tunes and is the only scale (mode) that generally needs to be used for that given tune. Knowing it will give you the bassline, the fills and everything you need to get through the song and sound like you know what you are doing.

The way to learn to manipulate the scales is to learn then straight, then learn them based on intervallic relationships, for example, broken 3rds, broken 6ths, and other patterns.

Also you will need to learn to play the arpeggios that are contained in the mode. For example, the arpeggios associated with the C major scale are the ones mentioned before:

Cmaj 7, Dmin7, E min7, Fmaj 7, G(dominant)7, Amin7, B half diminished.

You will need to learn that there are 3 positions you can play any arpeggio from. Most people only know one, but knowing all three will make your playing efficient and keep your hands from jumping all over the place.

Anyway, this is it in a kinda big nutshell. It’s not as tough as it sounds, but it does take some effort.

Note: People often talk about learning the major and minor scales, but they are usually only learning two modes of a major scale, typically the Ionian and the Aeolian. They are not acknowledging the other 5 modes at all. so those people miss a lot of usable scale tones. The fact is that all the modes have the same notes, they are just arranged differently and thus give you a different sound. It just depends on where you start the scale...

Learning a true minor scale and it's attending modes involves learning scales with names like "super locrian" and stuff like that. Save that for later.

[MalcolmAmos]

Well lets get what a scale is first. Here is what http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/ says:

A series of notes in ascending or descending order that presents the pitches of a key or mode, beginning and ending on the tonic of that key or mode. The degrees of a scale have specific names shown below and each of the unique 12 notes of the chromatic scale can be the tonic note of a scale.
Degrees of a Scale
1 - Tonic
2 - Supertonic
3 - Mediant
4 - Subdominant
5 - Dominant
6 - Submediant - Superdominant
7 - Leading Note - Subtonic

Now your question:

Originally Posted by kingj123

what exactly are scales used for? after learning some major and minor scales I was left with the feeling of "ok.....now what?" what am I missing? can I use scales to help me find notes when trying to learn a song by ear? I mean how do I put scales to use besides just learning them? thanks in advanced for the help. I really love the bass and really want to learn all I can.

What are they used for? Just about everything we do. Melody, and harmony are made from scale notes. Now if we use the notes from a given scale we can pretty well be assured those notes are going to sound good with each other.

The major scale is going to give a happy, attractive, up beat sound. The natural minor scale is said to give a sad, startled sound. If we take the major scale and sharp the 4th interval we are playing the Lydian mode of the major scale and this gives a day dreamy mood. If we want a minor jazz sounding mood we could use the natural minor scale and sharp the 6th interval - this produces the Dorian mode and is said to have an attractive jazz sound. Spin Doctor and I posted at the same time. He is talking about Relative modes I'm talking about parallel modes - we both end up at the same place just take different roads getting there. Be aware modes are taught two ways and yes this is confusing. Don't let that distract you from your original question - How do you use scales?

So if you wanted an up beat happy song good idea to base your song on the notes of a major scale. Which one? Good question. I like to sing in the D scale. Why? The D scale is a RANGE of sound I can hit all the high notes and also carry all the low notes. So If I were writing the song for my self I'd gather my notes from the D major Scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D notes - that last D is the beginnings of another octave.

However if I was writing a song with no one vocalist in mind I may write it in the C scale - C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. Why? C has no sharps or flats - all white keys on the piano - I write melody on the piano then take it where ever else I need it. Using just the white keys is simpler. You may not have considered why some songs are using the D major scale and some are using the C or F or G. Normally the vocalist is the culprit.

So we use scales to write melody and construct chords. Chords are another story best left for later.

Ask specific questions......

[Spin Doctor]

Playing stuff in C isn't simpler on piano just because the keys are all white, especially when you have to play fast. I played jazz piano for 20 years and C is a pain in the ass becasue it has no black key guide notes. E flat is the simplest key for a pianist, because it lays well under the hands.

I hate it when people say that white key stuff.

[kingj123]

wow thanks alot guys. that's some pretty deep stuff I'm going to have to re-read it all a bunch of times.

[GreggBummer]

Originally Posted by kingj123

wow thanks alot guys. that's some pretty deep stuff I'm going to have to re-read it all a bunch of times.

I've been playing bass for 25 years and I am still wrapping my head around this stuff. My advice: Don't try to understand everything at all at once. Many people go to school for years to get masters degrees in this stuff.

[mambo4]

I was going to write more, but these posts have it covered.

Originally Posted by Spin Doctor

There are chords contained within any scale form. For example, in a C major scale: C D E F G A B, you have a set of seven, 4 note chords that can be made from these notes

Cmaj 7, Dmin7, E min7, Fmaj 7, G(dominant)7, Amin7, B half diminished.

The above point is to me the single most important aspect of scales/chords to understand : every Note in a scale implies a particular chord.

Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	function
C		1	Cmaj 7	CEGB		I	(tonic)
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC		ii
E		3	Emin 7	EGBD		iii
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE		IV	(subdominant)
G		5	G7	GBDE		V	(dominant)
A		6	Amin 7	ACEG		iv	
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA		vii

Notice how the chords are spelled with alternating notes from the scale.
This same chart can be adapted to ANY major scale:
The root notes and spellings of the chords will change,
but the chord built on the "1" is always major, and is always the the tonic,
the chord built on the "5" is always a Dominant 7th chord, and is always th V, etc...

A similar, but different and slightly more complicated chart can be applied to Minor scales.

When you see guys posting about I-IV-V, ii-V-I, ect...this is what they are talking about.

and keep in mind this convention :
arabic numerals (1234567) refer to specific notes :scale tones,intervals or tones within a chord,
Roman numerals (I,Iv,V ect) refer to chords. Capital =major chords (I,IV,V) lowercase=minor chords(ii,iii,iv)

Not a rule, but a helpful convention.

[GreggBummer]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I was going to write more, but these posts have it covered.



The above point is to me the single most important aspect of scales/chords to understand : every Note in a scale implies a particular chord.

Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	function
C		1	Cmaj 7	CEGB		I	(tonic)
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC		ii
E		3	Emin 7	EGBD		iii
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE		IV	(subdominant)
G		5	G7	GBDE		V	(dominant)
A		6	Amin 7	ACEG		iv	
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA		vii

Notice how the chords are spelled with alternating notes from the scale.
This same chart can be adapted to ANY major scale:
The root notes and spellings of the chords will change,
but the chord built on the "1" is always major, and is always the the tonic,
the chord built on the "5" is always a Dominant 7th chord, and is always th V, etc...

A similar, but different and slightly more complicated chart can be applied to Minor scales.

When you see guys posting about I-IV-V, ii-V-I, ect...this is what they are talking about.

and keep in mind this convention :
arabic numerals (1234567) refer to specific notes :scale tones,intervals or tones within a chord,
Roman numerals (I,Iv,V ect) refer to chords. Capital =major chords (I,IV,V) lowercase=minor chords(ii,iii,iv)

Not a rule, but a helpful convention.

This is the single best post I have found on TB. I printed it out and put it in my notebook. Thank you very much. Sometimes, it takes the 3,000 time reading something to "get it".

[Box365]

I found this all very helpful. So glad I found TB.

[Staccato]

Originally Posted by Box365

I found this all very helpful. So glad I found TB.

+1 Thanks, and now in my 3 ring 'theory' binder!

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Stacatto

+1 Thanks, and now in my 3 ring 'theory' binder!

Wrong ; This isn''t theory, it is practice!

The so-called diatonic chords (CEGB - DFAC - EGBD etc.) played as arpeggios are daily practice material. Start studying them along the scale. Also practice triads CEG -DFA etc.

Use consistent fingering and try to play without shifting much.

As soon as you know them, start on progressions:

CEGB (I) - EGBD (iii) - ACEG (vi) - FACE (IV) - DFAC (ii) - GBDF (V) - BDFA (vii) - CEGB (I).

(I didn't write 7's with the functions; triads are also worthwhile)

The one I wrote covers all diatonic chords in a very common functional order. Once you know it, start playing them in the same order but skipping here and there, f.e. : I - vi - ii - V - I

Transpose to other keys also.

These exercises will greatly improve your hearing as well as your understanding of harmony.

[MalcolmAmos]

Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	function
C		1	Cmaj 7	CEGB		I	(tonic)
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC		ii
E		3	Emin 7	EGBD		iii
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE		IV	(subdominant)
G		5	G7	GBDF		V	(dominant)
A		6	Amin 7	ACEG		iv	
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA		vii

With piano I learned about "frozen left hand", which ends up being skip-a-note, but, never realized skip-a-note could be used as a way to come up with the seven chords in the key. The over all structure of this is amazing. Great visual aid.

Mambo4 thanks for posting this. You mentioned the minor scale. If you have the minor scale handy would appreciate you posting that also. As you said it would be a little different - I just ran the natural minor scale and it is pretty much the same. Would like to see what you have done with Harmonic and Melodic, i.e. how you handle the v/V.

[JTE]

Well, instead of Mambo4 doing this, why don't you sit down and write them out yourself? You've already done it for the natural minor scale and found (surprise!) that the chords are all the same as the diatonic major. Now try it with the harmonic minor and analyze what that change to the 7th does to the the chords.

BTW, when I teach this (and I'm frankly surprised at how many people seemingly never learned about harmonizing the major scale), I prefer to put the notes on top of each other so you can see the chords stacked with the root on the bottom...

C D E F G A B C

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

John

NOTE: Edited from the original post to correct some typos (that were a big problem because I cut and pasted the wrong line a few times...)

[mambo4]

JTE is absolutely right, working these out for your self is much more instructive.
But since you asked...

The reason Minor scales are more complex to harmonize is because there are various Minor Scales that typically get harmonized.
There's the natural Minor, which is really just the harmonized major scale, but rearragned from the 6th. C major becomes A minor, like so:

A Natural Minor
Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	function
A		6	Amin 7	ACEG		i	
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA		ii
C		1	Cmaj 7	CEGB		bIII	
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC		iv
E		3	Emin 7	EGBD		v
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE		bVI	
G		5	G7	GBDE		bVII

At some point composers felt the v min 7 chord resolving to the i min chord was not "resolvey" enough.
So they changed the v min7 chord to become a V7 : a dominant chord.
If you grab a piano or guitar and play |E min | Amin| and compare it to |E7| A min| you'll hear the difference.

This was done by by raising the 7th tone of the scale. G becomes G# in this case.
This effected several other chords built form the scale. Thus was born the Harmonic Minor Scale, and its more comlicated chords:

A harmonic minor
Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	function
A		6	A min(maj7) ACEG#	i min(maj7)
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA		ii min7b5
C		1	Cmaj7(#5)	CEG#B		bIII maj 7(#5)
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC		iv min7
E		3	E 7	EG#BD		V7
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE		bVI maj7
G#		5	G# dim7	G#BDE		vii dim7

| i min | VI maj7 | ii min7b5 | V7 |
is one of my favorite progressions....

keep in mind that these are not "rules".
Often simply playing the v min7 as a V7 and keeping the rest like the natural minor scale is enough.
in practice, composers will not slavishly follow one or another formula for a minor scale.
or the major scale, for that matter : the Beatles were fond of throwing Dominant 7th chords in all over the place.

[greggster59]

As a fellow sorta noob who recently asked his teacher the same question as you, all of the above contain great and useful info. On a practical level I find learning and practicing scales is familiarizing me with where each note is on the fretboard in multiple positions making it easier to figure out how to play bass lines more efficiently. Practicing scales is also a great way to develop dexterity/chops.

Hope this helps.

[funkythumb]

Another, simple view.
Scales are groups of notes that have or create a certain sound. There are many different types of scales.
Here's the simplest way I first explain how and where you will use scales.
If you're in a band and you're jamming along with everyone, you need to first know what chord the guitar player or key player is playing. For example a C Maj chord.
When you learn scales, you will know which scales fit with which chords. This will give you generally 5-7 different notes from which to choose from to play along with the C Maj chord the guitar player is playing.
This, of course, is a VERY simplified view of where you can use scales. The previous posts get into more of the details.
You need to know how diatonic chords fit together to know which modes to use. You also need to learn the basic pentatonic scales to use right away when you're clueless as to the modes. There are many chords and scales to learn for more advanced stuff.
Scales will give you a group of notes that sound good together over a certain chord. You can use these notes to create bass lines or melodies for solos.
Some people like Carol Kay greatly dislike the idea of playing scales over chords because your playing might sound scaley. For right now, don't worry about it.

[MalcolmAmos]

OK thanks, I've printed this and I'm heading for a nice quite room. Will check back in a bit. Appreciate the post.

Now for my questions ----

John - B A F A is this a typo and should be B D F A? It comes about from E F G A B C A B - lost me there.
Then C B G B what is this supposed to be?

Mambo4 - In the A natural minor chart - the use of bIII, bVI and bVII I'm guessing the b signifies a major chord in a minor key. Is this an accepted way of writing a major chord in a minor key? Or am I missing something here?

One other questions - Harmonic minor - we seem to end up with two diminished chords. The ii min7b5 no problem I understand this, however, the viidim7-- G# G#BDE. Is the E for a bb7? And should this not be VII not vii? Talk to me about having two diminished chords with the Harmonic minor key. On some of my other charts the VII(little 0) is shown, I've just Ignored it being another diminished chord up to now.

Other than that I'm OK with what you guys sent. Thanks appreciate your time and efforts. Being Country we have two songs - out of several hundred in our gig book - in a minor key. The minor keys are just something I would like to get my head around. I'll work on the Melodic minor chart next.

Malcolm

[Febs]

mambo4, I think there are a couple mistakes in your chart. Let me know if you agree with the corrections noted in bold below:

Originally Posted by mambo4

A harmonic minor
Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	function
A		6	A min(maj7) ACEG#	i min(maj7)
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA		ii min7b5
C		1	Cmaj7#5	CEG#B		bIII maj7#5	
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC		iv min7
E		3	Emin 7	EG#BD		V7
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE		bVI maj7
G#		5	G#dim7	G#BDF		vii dim7

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Wrong ; This isn''t theory, it is practice!

The so-called diatonic chords (CEGB - DFAC - EGBD etc.) played as arpeggios are daily practice material. Start studying them along the scale. Also practice triads CEG -DFA etc.

Use consistent fingering and try to play without shifting much.

As soon as you know them, start on progressions:

CEGB (I) - EGBD (iii) - ACEG (vi) - FACE (IV) - DFAC (ii) - GBDF (V) - BDFA (vii) - CEGB (I).

(I didn't write 7's with the functions; triads are also worthwhile)

The one I wrote covers all diatonic chords in a very common functional order. Once you know it, start playing them in the same order but skipping here and there, f.e. : I - vi - ii - V - I

Transpose to other keys also.

These exercises will greatly improve your hearing as well as your understanding of harmony.

+1

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Febs

mambo4, I think there are a couple mistakes in your chart...:

indeed, nice catch. I updated the chart in my original post.