Newbie questions on modes and scales

[Casezilla]

Alright, I don't get it. I was always under the impressoin that a Lydian, Locrian, Dorian, etc etc things are just scales, that are very similar to the major or minor scale.
But, I am now encountering it being said that they're modes.

But I thought that a mode was just like, an A Major's root being moved to a C, or something, while it still being an A Major?


I don't understand. Apparently I don't know the difference between scales/modes?
http://musiced.about.com/od/beginnerstheory/f/modes.htm -- The clearest example of my confusion.

[rokkitt]

subscribed... I could use this info as well....

Rokkitt

[purpletornado]

It looks like a particular mode uses a different note of the major scale then the whole and half steps in front of the new root tone are moved to the end of the scale.

So a Major scale (Ionian mode) is w-w-h-w-w-w-h, say it's a C Major scale. C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Then next is Dorian mode, you'd use D as the root. So now the first whole step of your major scale gets moved from the front to the end and you end up with w-h-w-w-w-h-w. D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

Phrygian mode uses the next tone, E in this case, and the next whole step gets dropped of the front and moved to the end and you get h-w-w-w-h-w-w. And so on. E-E#-F#-G#-A#-B-C-D-E

[JTE]

ARGH!!!

Yes, modes do wind up being built on different starting points of the major scale. But that's a really poor way to learn them. All scales have a sound. You need to learn that. Ionian is the same as the diatonic major scale. It's W W H W W W H. Play it and listen to it. Learn how it sounds, how the last note pulls you to the starting point again.

Dorian is W H W W W H W. Listen to that. Dig how your ear senses the sound of the first three notes differently than the first three notes of Ionian.

Learn your modes all from the same root first. So you'll learn C D E F G A B C for Ionian, then C D Eb F G A Bb C for Dorian, etc.

But, do NOT use the "use Dorian for minor chords" until you understand how to harmonize a scale. That'll help you a lot more with what mode or scale to use. Because while Dorian works for minor chords, there're two other classical modes that also work for minor chords and you need to know the differences. If you're playing a dorian vamp (for example, Amin7 to G7) then you'll want A Dorian. But if it's an Amin7 to G7 that's resolving to C, then understand that all your note choices are from the C major scale instead of changing your perspective for each chord.

John

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JTE

ARGH!!!

Yes, modes do wind up being built on different starting points of the major scale. But that's a really poor way to learn them. All scales have a sound. You need to learn that.

+1
Compliments on your patience, John.

1. read music
2. major and minor scales
3. intervals
4. chords
5. harmonic functions of chords
6. and if
7. you really
8. can't
9. resist
10. modes

[MalcolmAmos]

I don't think we have answered your question -- is a mode a scale. There are 7 modes of a scale. I like to say a mode is a mood of a scale. I know - wars have been fought over that statement. Some get bent out of shape if you call a mode a scale, others could care less. Think of it any way you like, getting our heads around modes is hard enough - just don't mix the words mode and scale in public. LOL

I don't think we got around to giving you the 7 moods. Again wars have been fought over this also.
Ionian being the same as the major scale it has an attractive up beat mood.
Dorian being minor has a sad mood. I do not hear that much sadness in Dorian. Great jazz mood.
Phrygian is minor and has an exotic Spanish mood. Choice of Metal.
Lydian is major and has a dreamy mood.
Mixolydian is major used in the blues progressions. Has a Latin - Mexican mood.
Aeolian is the same as the natural minor scale and does have a sad mood.
Locrian is the diminished mode and has a dark tense mood.

Question. How often would a song change moods? How often does it vacillate from a major mood to a minor mood? Normally, pick a mood and gather your melody notes from that mood. If your song does change moods in mid song - grab the mode that produces the new mood.

Another point - the chords played under your mode influence the modal sound you will receive. A basic chord progression has a tendency of retaining the tonal center of the progression. A modal vamp has a tendency of sustaining the modal mood. Look up modal vamps.

Have fun.

[Fergie Fulton]

Look at a piano, it has white keys that repeat the same 7 notes so it goes

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C etc and so on it goes.

So take any 8 notes in a row form this and you have a mode not a scale. Confusion is some of the modes are used as scales like the C scale...C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C You will find notes that relate to scales.
But as the notes are so in order, so are the intervals in between them.
So the same notes listed above have these intervals between them (T-tone, S-Semitone)

T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S

etc. Now this represents the white keys again but this time with intervals, but in between tones, shown above as the sharps, are the black keys on the piano, the sharps and flats if you will of music depending on the scales.

So it would look like this, and notice the groupings of twos and threes the black note take inbetween the Tones, exactly the same as a piano

..C#.D#....F#G#A#.....C#.D#....F#G#A#....
C...D...E.F...G...A...B.C...D...E.F...G...A...B.C

Now we can see the relationship to the notes and the intervals as the appear on a piano. On the bass all frets are semi tones apart, so therefore all notes on any one string are a semitone apart next to each other. Because of no black notes above as on a piano, a bass as all its semitones side by side and reads. E-F and B-C are semitones because of the order of intervals that depict it as Ionian, and therefore cannot have a note between them in Westen music.

C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#-G-G#-A-A#-B-C etc

All modes are.. are inversion of a C scale by intervals, and so the need for sharps and flats when using notes to keep the intervals correct.
So if we take starting note and play 8 notes in a row all white we have the modes. If you understand theory, modes are just inversions on a C scale
Ionian = Root C-C 8 white notes on the piano the C major scale
Dorian is D-D 8 white notes on the piano, 1st inversion
Phrygian is 8 white notes on the piano, 2nd inversion
Lydian is F-F 8 white notes on the piano, 3rd inversion
Mixolydian is G-G 8 white notes on the piano, 4th inversion
Aeolian is A-A 8 white notes on the piano (tonic minor scale), 5th inversion
Locrian is B-B 8 white notes on the piano, 6th inversion.

Modes are just what you have learned in different positions, thats why they want to be one of the last things anyone learns IMO. When introduced to early without proper education or understanding they are a distraction, a cul-de-sac, a waste of time, pointless, etc you name it. There are better things to get in place first, foundation knowledge to support modes when the time comes to study them, and for me that study would be brief as they can be seen as pointless, limiting and restrictive in most musical situations IMO.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Modes are just what you have learned in different positions, thats why they want to be one of the last things anyone learns IMO. When introduced to early without proper education or understanding they are a distraction, a cul-de-sac, a waste of time, pointless, etc you name it. There are better things to get in place first, foundation knowledge to support modes when the time comes to study them, and for me that study would be brief as they can be seen as pointless, limiting and restrictive in most musical situations IMO.

YES. The Major and natural minor have enough notes to keep us busy for years.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

YES. The Major and natural minor have enough notes to keep us busy for years.

Of course they have. Modes are ordered anagrams and that's all, e.g.

anagram-nagrama, agraman, gramana, ramanag, amanagr, managra, anagram

Take any word and do this and you will find in some cases new words are made, or there are words within it, or just rearrange the letters any old way (call that a key change) and create new words.
Modes are anagrams with musical principals....but you have to understand the principals to play the game.

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by Casezilla

http://musiced.about.com/od/beginnerstheory/f/modes.htm -- The clearest example of my confusion.

Don't read too much into it; it's actually the clearest explanation I ever found. And I am no music theory genius.

Take it one example at a time...

Thus, in a way, modes can be defined as displaced major scales. - that's all they are. Here's why...

•Ionian - Also known as the major scale; follows the pattern W-W-H-W-W-W-H.

•Dorian - Constructed from the second note of a major scale; follows the pattern W-H-W-W-W-H-W.

•Phrygian - Constructed from the third note of a major scale; follows the pattern H-W-W-W-H-W-W.

And so on. Under each mode each scale is moved over by one degree. What do we do with them in playing? Beats the snot out of me! If a song is already written I'm going to play it as it's written. Unless I'm a total tool (and I'm sure there are people more than happy to point that out ), I don't know why I'd care to know that much about the song. What I am interested in and need to know as a player is my chord structures and triads, 7ths, and major and minor scales.

If I'm going to play a bass line over a rhythm guitarist, and he's playing a I IV V in C (real nuclear physics there) I need to know the notes that make up those chords. It's a different story if I am composing. Then all this theory is absolutely essential. I could be entirely wrong, but I'd think that Ravel, writing Bolero; Bizet, writing Carmen; and pieces like Malaguena would be in Phrygian, having that "Spanish" sound.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Minotauros

Don't read too much into it; it's actually the clearest explanation I ever found. And I am no music theory genius.

Take it one example at a time...

Thus, in a way, modes can be defined as displaced major scales. - that's all they are. Here's why...

•Ionian - Also known as the major scale; follows the pattern W-W-H-W-W-W-H.

•Dorian - Constructed from the second note of a major scale; follows the pattern W-H-W-W-W-H-W.

•Phrygian - Constructed from the third note of a major scale; follows the pattern H-W-W-W-H-W-W.

And so on. Under each mode each scale is moved over by one degree. What do we do with them in playing? Beats the snot out of me! If a song is already written I'm going to play it as it's written. Unless I'm a total tool (and I'm sure there are people more than happy to point that out ), I don't know why I'd care to know that much about the song. What I am interested in and need to know as a player is my chord structures and triads, 7ths, and major and minor scales.

If I'm going to play a bass line over a rhythm guitarist, and he's playing a I IV V in C (real nuclear physics there) I need to know the notes that make up those chords. It's a different story if I am composing. Then all this theory is absolutely essential. I could be entirely wrong, but I'd think that Ravel, writing Bolero; Bizet, writing Carmen; and pieces like Malaguena would be in Phrygian, having that "Spanish" sound.

Well, that's NOT all modes are, and IMO it's not a good idea to think of them primarily as displaced major scales. That's the least useful way to think of them IMO. There have been a lot of posts on this topic; I suggest you look up some of JTE's.

[superhand]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Modes are just what you have learned in different positions, thats why they want to be one of the last things anyone learns IMO. When introduced to early without proper education or understanding they are a distraction, a cul-de-sac, a waste of time, pointless, etc you name it. There are better things to get in place first, foundation knowledge to support modes when the time comes to study them, and for me that study would be brief as they can be seen as pointless, limiting and restrictive in most musical situations IMO.

I strongly disagree with that. Learning your major and minor scales in all 12 keys is a good place to start, but from there you should learn every scale, mode, whatever you can get your hands on. Some of them you might like the way they sound and they can become part of your routine. Other ones that you don't like, well, don't play them.

I think the more theory you know the better of you are. It is good to start with the basics so you don't get overwhelmed, but why limit yourself?

Let's not forget the pentatonic (five tone) scales either, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of those over the years.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by superhand

I strongly disagree with that. Learning your major and minor scales in all 12 keys is a good place to start, but from there you should learn every scale, mode, whatever you can get your hands on. Some of them you might like the way they sound and they can become part of your routine. Other ones that you don't like, well, don't play them.

I think the more theory you know the better of you are. It is good to start with the basics so you don't get overwhelmed, but why limit yourself?

Let's not forget the pentatonic (five tone) scales either, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of those over the years.

It's all good, but learners need priorities. It's not about limiting yourself, it's about the unfortunate fact that you can't learn everything at once. Also, not everything is equally useful or essential. IMO and that of many others, modes should not be among the first priorities for a beginning student of theory.

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Well, that's NOT all modes are, and IMO it's not a good idea to think of them primarily as displaced major scales. That's the least useful way to think of them IMO. There have been a lot of posts on this topic; I suggest you look up some of JTE's.

Take it up with the author of the About Music Education site, where the o.p. read that comment. I tried to clarify what he read on that site. The comment is the author's, not mine. And if it works as a start, what's the harm?

Happy playing.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Minotauros

I suggest you take it up with the author of the About Music Education site, where the o.p. read that comment. I tried to clarify what he read on that site. The comment is the author's, not mine. If you have something to offer other than chastisement, offer it. Your post was less helpful than you suggest mine was.

Happy playing.

If you thought that was chastisement, think again. It was a countering point of view. If that's a problem for you, avoid the Internet. You endorsed that comment as the clearest explanation you had read; I said I didn't think it was a good explanation. Big deal.

As for my having something to offer besides chastisement, as you put it, I have typed thousands of words on this site trying to help people understand things, including--wait for it--thousands of words on this very topic, which you are welcome to look up. I don't know how much I've actually helped anybody, but it hasn't been for lack of effort.

I just didn't feel like typing the same damn thing for the umpteenth time. Let me suggest that you do a search on modes and scales, and you may understand why I said what I said. In the meantime, I stand by what I said.

[Minotauros]

And I stand by what I said. Let me repeat: I tried to clarify the article the o.p. referred to. I didn't write the article but it worked for me. That you've written thousands of words is admirable. So has the About Guide. Start a website and post the link. Then your info wil be easily accessible.

Look at the thread title again, "Newbie questions on modes and scales". "Newbie" is a dead giveaway that he might be overwhelmed by the thousands of words you've written.

Hey, I've been on the internet since the only access was through an IBM VM machine. So I've encountered worse in those years. What I do have a problem with is snarky writing tones using caps to make a point, and being condescended to as if the person being addressed is completely stupid. That's just plain rude an ill-mannered.

Let's revisit your post:

"Well, that's NOT all modes are, and IMO it's not a good idea to think of them primarily as displaced major scales. That's the least useful way to think of them IMO. There have been a lot of posts on this topic; I suggest you look up some of JTE's. "

We've both had our say; I suggest we cut our losses.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Minotauros

Let's revisit your post:

"Well, that's NOT all modes are, and IMO it's not a good idea to think of them primarily as displaced major scales. That's the least useful way to think of them IMO. There have been a lot of posts on this topic; I suggest you look up some of JTE's. "

Okay, let's revisit that, since you insist. Explain how it's condescending, or how it somehow makes you out to be stupid. If I tell you I think you're wrong, how is that equivalent to saying you're stupid? If I use caps one time for emphasis, why do you have a problem with that? If I suggest some good sources for you to learn more, how is that condescending?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Minotauros

And I stand by what I said. Let me repeat: I tried to clarify the article the o.p. referred to. I didn't write the article but it worked for me. That you've written thousands of words is admirable. So has the About Guide. Start a website and post the link. Then your info wil be easily accessible.

It already is accessible. Via the search function.

Originally Posted by Minotauros

Look at the thread title again, "Newbie questions on modes and scales". "Newbie" is a dead giveaway that he might be overwhelmed by the thousands of words you've written.

Yes, I know he's a newbie. That's why I think it's particularly important that he not be given faulty information. It's also one reason why I referred you to JTE's posts, not my own: JTE says these things more concisely than I do. In addition, it's another reason why I didn't write thousands of words in this particular thread.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by JTE

ARGH!!!

Yes, modes do wind up being built on different starting points of the major scale. But that's a really poor way to learn them. All scales have a sound. You need to learn that. Ionian is the same as the diatonic major scale. It's W W H W W W H. Play it and listen to it. Learn how it sounds, how the last note pulls you to the starting point again.

Dorian is W H W W W H W. Listen to that. Dig how your ear senses the sound of the first three notes differently than the first three notes of Ionian.

Learn your modes all from the same root first. So you'll learn C D E F G A B C for Ionian, then C D Eb F G A Bb C for Dorian, etc.

But, do NOT use the "use Dorian for minor chords" until you understand how to harmonize a scale. That'll help you a lot more with what mode or scale to use. Because while Dorian works for minor chords, there're two other classical modes that also work for minor chords and you need to know the differences. If you're playing a dorian vamp (for example, Amin7 to G7) then you'll want A Dorian. But if it's an Amin7 to G7 that's resolving to C, then understand that all your note choices are from the C major scale instead of changing your perspective for each chord.

John

This. Modes are NOT "C major scale" starting on different notes. This single concept has confused more musicians than it's helped.

[Casezilla]

So, what I've gotten from this is a few different possibilities:
1) Modes are just scales in different positions of the fretboard, following the same shape. (For example, C Major to G Major, both the same finger-pattern, just in a different spot).

2) Modes are scales with different roots (like the flatted seventh note of a major scale making it a mixolydian would be the root, therefore making it a mode).

3) Modes are major-scale derivatives, with a note or two changed.

4) A mode is any scale altered with a Lydian, Mixolydian, or any of those 7 things.
Like, a Spanish Gypsy scale with a flatted 7th (if possible) becomes a Mixolydian mode of the Spanish Gypsy.

Are any of these right?

Originally Posted by superhand

I strongly disagree with that. Learning your major and minor scales in all 12 keys is a good place to start, but from there you should learn every scale, mode, whatever you can get your hands on. Some of them you might like the way they sound and they can become part of your routine. Other ones that you don't like, well, don't play them.

I think the more theory you know the better of you are. It is good to start with the basics so you don't get overwhelmed, but why limit yourself?

Let's not forget the pentatonic (five tone) scales either, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of those over the years.

So, do pentatonics have modes? (for future reference, of when I understand it...)



@ Richard and Minotauros -- One of you said something right, the newbie thing is a dead giveaway that I don't understand the in-depth analysises at this point. My search results (which were the first thing I did, as well as visit all the sticky note guides) were of no help to me, as I couldn't really understand them, and when I thought I did, I found directly conflicting statements. But nonetheless, I still only understood like half of the conflicting statement.
Anyways, I encourage you both not to fight. Let's leave it as is.