Next Step after learning scales - Question on the Method Carol Kaye Teaches

[98dvl]

I'm thinking of purchasing the following books from Carol Kaye's site, because of some recommendations I've read on here earlier:

Bass DVD Course (with manual)
and
Rock-Funk Bass CD and guide

My question is this, I currently have a few books that have a lot of info on scales (Bass Grimoire) and some other general music theory books that I've picked up (Idiot's Guide to Music Theory and Idiot's Guide to Music Composition).

I'm starting to learn how to play some scales, but I don't really know what the next step is... I'd like to improve my improvising skills... I sort of understand how to put chords together, i.e. I have a book that explains what chords sound good with each other in certain keys. But, I haven't quite figured out how to know when to play what scale over what chord.

Is there a good book that covers this next step? I don't quite understand what I'm missing, and the Grimoire book doesn't seem to explain this too well.

It sounds like the method Carol Kaye teaches may go into this with the "chordal scale" approach, but her site doesn't really explain it, and how it would be better than just memorizing scales and what not. Also the sample links on her site aren't working (they only seem to link to MP3 files though).

Also, with Carol Kaye's book, I'm assuming that I'll need to brush up on my sight reading skills... Is this true, or do her books include tablature?

Would anyone recommend her Jazz improv for Bass book (along with the Pro's Jazz Phrases book)? Like I said, I really want to improve my improv skills, but I am mostly interested in rock music... What exactly is the difference between Jazz improv and rock improv?

Thanks!

[Freddels]

For scales I would suggest this book: http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merch...Code=DANHAEBOO

To learn chords, after you've learned a scale, play the scale in 3rds (meaning skip every other note) and start on each note of the scale and it will build the related chord.

For C maj scale CDEFGABC
in 3rd starting on C CEGBDFA (CEG is the triad) (CEGB is the maj7)

starting on D DFACEGB

starting on E EGBDFAC

etc.

The difference b/w rock and jazz improve has a lot to do with different feel/groove. All western music uses the same 12 notes. It's learning which notes not to play.

[lowerclef]

I was a student of Carol's, and she has an enormous wealth of musical knowledge. Jazz is her specialty, and if you're looking to solo and walk over standards authentically, this is the place to go. Jazz Improv For Bass and Pro's Jazz Phrases are indispensable for this aim. You need to get both, by the way, as PJP is referenced often in JIFB. Even if you're more geared toward rock, you should learn this stuff. It will open up your ears tremendously to help you in all styles of playing.

I own the Bass Grimoire, and you are right: it's a lot of massive raw data with no explanation of how to use it. The great thing about Carol's method is that you're learning a musical vocabulary and using it right away. It's all very musical, and there is no "scale thinking" involved. You are essentially playing chords.

I've heard people confuse this by saying, "What - so you can only play GBDF on a G7 chord?" It's not like that at all. The book is pretty comprehensive when it comes to chord substitutions, so if you learn a certain pattern, chances are you can play it over many different chords. The sky's the limit in terms of ideas you can use with this method. You can use an Fm9 pattern for E7, for example.

She's got a lot of materials, and I'd recommend getting as many as you can. They are very inexpensive, so it won't really set you back. They are all full of great ideas, though. It will give you plenty to chew on, though. The Joe Pass material in the back of JIFB is a real ball-buster!

(If you've seen Joe's instructional video, he was also very much into the chordal mindset as opposed to playing scales.)

And there's no tablature, by the way.

[rufusbass]

Hi Guys-
Thought I might jump in as I am back in LA and have some time to write-
Regarding the (popular) question of who to study with and what to study!
Regarding Improvising-regardless of idiom, I think TRANSCRIPTION is incredibly important-in fact, i think it is almost impossible to over-emphasize this...
By transcription I mean listening to and learning (and, if possible writing down) a phrase/ entire solo of an improvising artist you admire. ALSO-studying the solos of non bassists will enhance your melodic vocabulary hugely...
A basic list of good places to start might include-
John Scofield,Michael Brecker, Charlie Parker, Pat Metheny,Scott henderson,Chick Corea, Bob Berg, Bob MIntzer, etc,etc...
Although one of my regular gigs is with Virgil Donati's band, and also Planet X-which is rock oriented music, there is a lot fo space to solo, andwhether its over one chord or twenty-ranign from E minor 9 to D flat 7 sharp five, flat 9 etc, if you have a melodic vocab built up from studying these musicians (and others!!) you will be able to play melodic interesting solos....
I teach myself, and in my DVD (i put up a posting on this, or you can get me at rufusbass@gmail.com if interested) talk about the APPLICATION of material-it is one thing to know say, D Dorian works over D minor 7th, -but WHICH chord tones sound interesting-how does the ninth or thirteenth sound against the basic minor 7th...ALSO-in addition, one needs to figure out which "wrong " notes sound good...The more advanced soloist frequently employs chromatic passing notes (which according to strict music theory-whatever that may be!!!-can be considered"incorrect")
For instance-a C# is considered incorrect against a Dminor 7th, because the 7th is flattened (i.e a C Natural) yet, if we use a phrase that -for instance, descends chromatically, from a D, to a C# to a C natural, then the C# makes perfect sense...Connecting one chord/scale tone to the next...
Regardless of which teacher you or anyone goes to-and Carol Kaye is a sweetheart (we spent some fun times chatting at the Ibanez Xmas bash in 05) its great to transcribe stuff-I STILL do it when something catches my ear..
ANOTHER POINT! (then I will shut up!)
By transcribing stuff you achieve these objectives
-improve your ear training
improve your technique-figuring out how to play something new
-improve your melodic vocabulary
-improve your reading-if u write out what u learn--
AND, I ALWAYS learn something better if I transcribe it , as opposed to reading someone else's transcription out of a book...
I can still remember (and even use) some ideas of Mike Brecker's, Pat Metheny's and Pat Martino from studying records (vinyl!!!) when I was a student in 1990!!
Would be interested to hear from people on this--
I agree with what another Talkbass memeber put about teachers and practical experience...I personally think a teacher should have some track record of performance...Then their instruction is informed by real world knowledge, in ADDITION to any academic qualifications.
I have a degree in music, but I will tell you-I have learnt more from performing and/or recording with these guys-Scott henderson,Tony MacAlpine,Mitch Forman,Joel Rosenblatt,Randy brecker etc, etc...
Anyway-
Hope that is of some interest
Cheers
Rufus Philpot
A few of my private students are on Talkbass so ..

[Thor]

You will find some good DVD's on www.homespuntapes.com
that have material for beginning and intermediate players.
Documentaion usually includes both music and tabulature.

[98dvl]

Originally Posted by rufusbass

Hi Guys-
Thought I might jump in as I am back in LA and have some time to write-
Regarding the (popular) question of who to study with and what to study!
...

[snip]
...
Anyway-
Hope that is of some interest
Cheers
Rufus Philpot
A few of my private students are on Talkbass so ..

Sounds interesting... do you recommend trying to transcribe everything at full speed, or using something like the Tascam bass trainer to slow everything down?

Also, I posted in your other thread about your video... I'd like to know more about what's in it and who it's geared towards...

[rufusbass]

Hey there-so I almost always transcribed at full speed..BUT I wouldtake a phrase and even work it out a note or two at a time if it was fast/hard to hear..Some sax stuff can be a bitch to pick out!!!
I also (inevitably) did some bass transcription..i remember a Jeff berlin solo off "Pump It"..(manos de Piedra or something -cant rememeber...)
took a week-but it was three full pages of blazing 16th notes!!!
And at the end, I felt pretty satisfied!! And I managed to play along with the record another week later, so life was good!
But if half speed helps, go for it! Transcribing is so beneficial that you will still get loads from it...
Far more I feel than those huge Grimoire or thesaurus of scales type books.....Think about it-we are trying to play in a melodic fashion, so if we speand 90% of the time on scales rather than studying melodic phrasing, then its hard to BE truly melodic..Its an ENDLESS quest too!- I am still scratching the surface of stuff i started dtudying 19 yrs ago!
Best
Rufus

[62bass]

Originally Posted by 98dvl

I'm thinking of purchasing the following books from Carol Kaye's site, because of some recommendations I've read on here earlier:

Bass DVD Course (with manual)
and
Rock-Funk Bass CD and guide

My question is this, I currently have a few books that have a lot of info on scales (Bass Grimoire) and some other general music theory books that I've picked up (Idiot's Guide to Music Theory and Idiot's Guide to Music Composition).

I'm starting to learn how to play some scales, but I don't really know what the next step is... I'd like to improve my improvising skills... I sort of understand how to put chords together, i.e. I have a book that explains what chords sound good with each other in certain keys. But, I haven't quite figured out how to know when to play what scale over what chord.

Is there a good book that covers this next step? I don't quite understand what I'm missing, and the Grimoire book doesn't seem to explain this too well.

It sounds like the method Carol Kaye teaches may go into this with the "chordal scale" approach, but her site doesn't really explain it, and how it would be better than just memorizing scales and what not. Also the sample links on her site aren't working (they only seem to link to MP3 files though).

Also, with Carol Kaye's book, I'm assuming that I'll need to brush up on my sight reading skills... Is this true, or do her books include tablature?

Would anyone recommend her Jazz improv for Bass book (along with the Pro's Jazz Phrases book)? Like I said, I really want to improve my improv skills, but I am mostly interested in rock music... What exactly is the difference between Jazz improv and rock improv?

Thanks!

You really should do these in a certain order. Start with the Bass DVD and Rock-Funk for bass. You don't have to be able to read for these. Later, when you have the basics down, go on to the others. Send Carol and email to ask her. She's always willing to help.

You'll certainly be able to improve your playing if you follow her methods. There's a wealth of knowlege there with a foolproof method to learning it and applying it. Good luck.