Non-melodic (atonal?) improvisation *mp3 link*

[Debased]

I love this style of soloing, but try as I might, I can't seem to unravel the underlying musical concepts involved:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group...dbasses/files/ Scroll all the way to the bottom of the page; the piece in question is called "TobiasDemo.mp3 (Nightpops' Tobias Growler 5 strings)."

I've been playing bass for over thirty years and I listen to a lot of fusion (Allan Holdsworth, Tribal Tech, UZEB, Brand X, Bunny Brunel, etc.). I have great technique and a good handle on scales and modes, but I'm generally a very melodic player. This dissonant style is very intriguing, but I don't quite know where to start.

I learned the solo in question note for note, and I have absolutely no trouble playing it, but I don't understand where it's coming from compositionally. Is it just semi-chromatic noodling? I'd really like to learn how to think along these lines.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

TIA

[superbassman2000]

is there a better link where i don't have to join that group to hear the clip?

[Debased]

See if this works:

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gN2ZRJ3...TobiasDemo.mp3

[Figjam]

nope^

[Debased]

Whimper whimper...not sure what else to do. Guess I'll have to spend the rest of my life playing melodically

[superbassman2000]

can you download it, and then put it on rapidshare or something?
or if you don't know how, email it to me, and i will put it on rapidshare

[s.m.80808]

I wouldn't call any of their music "atonal" as there is usually a harmonic pattern over which they are improvising.

Maybe this could work:

Whatever note you want to play, play the other one.

Just joking.

Seriously though, try aiming for chord extensions (7ths 9ths 13ths etc...) That's the "conventional" advice.

One other interesting approach that hasn't been too succeful for me was Howard Roberts method of making shapes (partial chords if you like) and moving between finger patterns without so much regard to what the notes actually are.

I too couldn't hear you clips so I don't know how good my advice is.

[Debased]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

can you download it, and then put it on rapidshare or something?
or if you don't know how, email it to me, and i will put it on rapidshare

Thanks! I followed your suggestion, hope this works, I've never used rapidshare before:

http://rapidshare.de/files/23754138/TobiasDemo.mp3.html

[Debased]

Originally Posted by s.m.80808

One other interesting approach that hasn't been too succeful for me was Howard Roberts method of making shapes (partial chords if you like) and moving between finger patterns without so much regard to what the notes actually are.

Thanks for the reply. That may indeed be what's going on in the solo I'm referring to. Hopefully the new link will work, and someone can verify that.

[s.m.80808]

alot of the effect is like what you described as chromatic noodled passing tones to upper extension chord tones.

those lines seem to be sticking to the extentions of the respective dominant and minor chords they are played over. For example: the first part in 'A' goes from the chromatically from the root to the flat seventh, jumps to the ninth and then to the 13th outlining the higher A dominant chord tones.


I hope that helped.

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by Debased

Thanks for the reply. That may indeed be what's going on in the solo I'm referring to. Hopefully the new link will work, and someone can verify that.

cool

that isn't atonal music, it sounds like a funky bebop solo to me...check out a few bebop scale if you are interested in that kind of music


i can show you atonal music if you want to hear atonal music

[s.m.80808]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

cool

that isn't atonal music, it sounds like a funky bebop solo to me...check out a few bebop scale if you are interested in that kind of music


i can show you atonal music if you want to hear atonal music

+1 Definitely bop sounding lines. Nice clean playing by the way.

[Lorenzini]

Originally Posted by s.m.80808

One other interesting approach that hasn't been too succeful for me was Howard Roberts method of making shapes (partial chords if you like) and moving between finger patterns without so much regard to what the notes actually are.

Not to any fault of your own, but this method you state by Howard Roberts sounds like absolute mindlessness.

[s.m.80808]

Originally Posted by Lorenzini

Not to any fault of your own, but this method you state by Howard Roberts sounds like absolute mindlessness.

Yeah, I have to agree to some extent.

Possibly, if someone were to mess around with a concept like that and be mindful of what they are hearing, they could stumble on interesting ideas and voicings. I have heard of a lot of song writers have done something similar (i.e. noodling with different finger patterns without regard to harmonic function) and reversed engineered what it was and why it worked after the fact.

Honestly, that particular method of playing hasn't been to useful in my experience either.

In the end, I guess it comes down to whatever works for the song.

[christoph h.]

the clip sounds like some (IMHO not so inspired) bebop lines.
if you want to get deeper into that kind of playing check
out the bebop scales and the concept of superimposing/implicating different chords over others.

if you're into books, David Baker's series about Bebop Scales (3 Volumes) should help.

also, Dave Liebman's "A Chromatic Approach To Jazz Harmony and Melody" is excellent - but heavy stuff.

[Debased]

Thanks to all who responded. This info is just what I was looking for.

Time to start studying bebop scales

[Pacman]

If there's no problem playing it, this isn't a Technique issue. I'll move this to General Instruction where you might get more replies.

[Correlli]

I can still hear a high degree of tonality. like others have said, there is more use of chromatic tones than diatonic.

Good examples of atonal music is serialism compositions by Arnold Schoenberg. That stuff is way out there.