as a noob, should I learn Bass or Treble ?

[artdrtr]

Sorry for the new thread, I tried reading others, but they did not answer my question specifically.

I recently switched over from guitar to bass. I played by ear and never learned to read music. I have a lot of band music books that I followed the cheater tabs within showing just the chords....Now that I am into the bass, I want to read the music and understand what I am playing and more than just thumping a C note if the chord is C -- playing more notes within chords...?


Questions I might be way off on:

1. Since the books are written in treble clef is it better to learn that so I can follow along?

2. Can I follow along -- Would I be able to play along with my guitar books "better" if I learned Treble clef instead of Bass clef?

3. Can the bass follow the Treble clef, or is it just for guitar notes?

4. Where/why would I use bass clef? (I am not in a band and just playing by myself)



thanks for any help.

[WarriorJoe7]

why not both... one is technically just an extension of the other anyways.

[vision]

Learn both. As a bassplayer sometimes you'll have to read charts that are specifically written for you, which will prabably be in the bass clef, and sometimes you'll have to read parts that are generic for the entire band, which will probably be in the treble clef. As was stated above, the two clefs are just extensions of each other, so learn both at the same time.

[artdrtr]

Would it be easier to learn both at the same time, or lets say Treble first, then learn bass later?

[scottbass]

+1 on both. When you teach kids to play the piano, you teach them both clefs at the same time. Much bass music, especially string bass (upright bass) parts to jazz, show tunes, etc is written in treble clef an octave (or two) above the actual notes. I know why this is done, but I disagree with it.

In band, kids who don't read music are taught just one clef. Even worse, the music notation is transposed up a step to get rid of the flats. A note that is actually a B flat is written as a C. Then, when they switch instruments (trumpet player becomes a baritone player, clarinet player becomes a sax player) the music notation stays in the treble clef - along with the one-step transposition - even though they are actually playing in the bass clef. What a convolution!

Trombone and tuba players (like me) play real notes in the real bass clef. And some trombone parts, especially jazz charts, are actually written in a third clef, a movable clef notation called "C clef".

I say if you're gonna learn to read music, learn to read it all at once - bass and treble clef. Then you will never be caught with a piece of music you can't read.

I could put up the usual disclaimer, "IMHO", but it's not just my opinion - I'm right!

[artdrtr]

thanks for the advice all -- guess I'm learning both....


Scottbass -- I really liked your video link, great sound!

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by artdrtr

-- I really liked your video link, great sound!

Thanks so much!

[eedre]

Originally Posted by artdrtr

Sorry for the new thread, I tried reading others, but they did not answer my question specifically.

I recently switched over from guitar to bass. I played by ear and never learned to read music. I have a lot of band music books that I followed the cheater tabs within showing just the chords....Now that I am into the bass, I want to read the music and understand what I am playing and more than just thumping a C note if the chord is C -- playing more notes within chords...?


Questions I might be way off on:

1. Since the books are written in treble clef is it better to learn that so I can follow along?

2. Can I follow along -- Would I be able to play along with my guitar books "better" if I learned Treble clef instead of Bass clef?

3. Can the bass follow the Treble clef, or is it just for guitar notes?

4. Where/why would I use bass clef? (I am not in a band and just playing by myself)



thanks for any help.

Books intended to include any low and high end instrument are written in treble AND bass clef.
Don't buy guitar books if you're trying to learn bass.
Bass and treble clefs cannot be read the same way.
You would use a bass clef because all staffed music for beginners is written in the bass clef for bass instruments like bass, left hand piano, trombone, tuba, etc.

[Parabolic Box]

It's not hard to know both. I mean, the are mnemonics to remember it...

Treble:
F---
E
D---
C
B---
A
G---
F
E---

So... Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge, and FACE. (Yeah, I got no mnemonic for that.)

Bass:
A---
G
F---
E
D---
C
B---
A
G---

Good Bassists Don't Forget Anything , and Always Create Excellent Grooves.

Though I read on here that it's better to know intervals as that's faster to read, which is true.

[mutedeity]

I agree that learning both clefs is a good idea. Just reading between the lines though, it seems that learning to read clefs is not the be all and end all of solving your problem. I think what you need to do is learn some basic theory at least. Theory and reading aren't really the same thing and while I think it's a good idea to learn to read, reading alone won't help you figure out what to do in a situation where you need to adapt your playing to a particular context.

[artdrtr]

Theory -- would I need a teacher for that? or is this something that can be learned though reading, online, etc.?

Originally Posted by mutedeity

I agree that learning both clefs is a good idea. Just reading between the lines though, it seems that learning to read clefs is not the be all and end all of solving your problem. I think what you need to do is learn some basic theory at least. Theory and reading aren't really the same thing and while I think it's a good idea to learn to read, reading alone won't help you figure out what to do in a situation where you need to adapt your playing to a particular context.

[LowBSix]

Originally Posted by artdrtr

Theory -- would I need a teacher for that? or is this something that can be learned though reading, online, etc.?

Theory is involved and yet similar to math. A good teacher makes all the difference in the world. I include Theory & Harmony in my lessons. It simply creates order and supplies scale sources as well as understanding what key you're in allows for Harmonic substitutions, etc. In other words Theory allows you to be a SMART Bassist instead of a guy that plays triads, sevenths and goes boom boom.... Imagine expanding and understanding what you're creating, which allows you to create more and understand what the other instruments and melody are doing!!!

[manutabora]

Originally Posted by scottbass

+1 on both. When you teach kids to play the piano, you teach them both clefs at the same time. Much bass music, especially string bass (upright bass) parts to jazz, show tunes, etc is written in treble clef an octave (or two) above the actual notes. I know why this is done, but I disagree with it.

In band, kids who don't read music are taught just one clef. Even worse, the music notation is transposed up a step to get rid of the flats. A note that is actually a B flat is written as a C. Then, when they switch instruments (trumpet player becomes a baritone player, clarinet player becomes a sax player) the music notation stays in the treble clef - along with the one-step transposition - even though they are actually playing in the bass clef. What a convolution!

Trombone and tuba players (like me) play real notes in the real bass clef. And some trombone parts, especially jazz charts, are actually written in a third clef, a movable clef notation called "C clef".

I say if you're gonna learn to read music, learn to read it all at once - bass and treble clef. Then you will never be caught with a piece of music you can't read.

I could put up the usual disclaimer, "IMHO", but it's not just my opinion - I'm right!

Hey Scottbass,
So transposing up one step is done to get rid of the flats? I thought music was written that way because of the nature of the instruments. I mean, if you are writing for a trumpet in B flat and you write the music in the actual pitches that you want the people to hear, it's not going to work because the isntrument is tuned one step down so every time you write a C, the people are going to hear a B flat instead. In a case like this, you would have to write the trumpet part in the key of D so that people actually hear it in C.
Or maybe there's some other kind of transposition that I'm not aware of, I'd really like to know more about that. I'm an orchestra musician, I've never been in bands other than jazz and pep bands, so I'm curious to know how that works.

[manutabora]

You know, it's a lot easier to read clefs when you understand how it works. I started my music education in Latin America (Honduras, specifically) and they teach you things differently there.
So, we don't call treble clef treble clef, we call it G clef. That is because if you look at it, the point at which you start drawing the clef on the staff, which is the second line from bottom to top, that line is a G. Likewise, we call bass clef, F clef, because the point at which you start drawing the clef, which is the second line top to bottom, is an F. From there, every line and space would be another note in the normal order (ABCDEFG) so in treble clef, the note on the space above the G line is an A, and the note in the space under the G line is an F, and so on, so forth...
If you could have a piece of sheet music (preferably piano) as you read this, that would help a lot.
Also, there's other clefs. The ones I know of are Alto and Tenor clefs, and those are both C clefs, but in different parts of the staff. You probably don't need to go there yet, though.

I hope this helps.

[mutedeity]

There are a lot of online resources for learning theory. There is really nothing to stop you from learning theory by reading online. Dolmetsch Online is a good resource for theory I think. The problem is, being new at theory makes it hard to know what is relevant. A good teacher can put things into perspective for you.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by artdrtr

Sorry for the new thread, I tried reading others, but they did not answer my question specifically.

I recently switched over from guitar to bass. I played by ear and never learned to read music. I have a lot of band music books that I followed the cheater tabs within showing just the chords....Now that I am into the bass, I want to read the music and understand what I am playing and more than just thumping a C note if the chord is C -- playing more notes within chords...?


Questions I might be way off on:

1. Since the books are written in treble clef is it better to learn that so I can follow along?

2. Can I follow along -- Would I be able to play along with my guitar books "better" if I learned Treble clef instead of Bass clef?

3. Can the bass follow the Treble clef, or is it just for guitar notes?

4. Where/why would I use bass clef? (I am not in a band and just playing by myself)

There's only one staff, with the clefs indicating a general location on the staff. Bass clef and Treble clef run into each other at middle C, so learn them both. You will use bass clef when you read bass instruction books, bass notation (like in song books or magazines), and later if/when you are playing professionally (but likely not unless you are playing recording sessions or in stage musicals) or teaching. You will use treble clef less as a bass player, but knowing both is essential to reading for keyboards, arranging, etc.

Don't think of them as two different languages, or two different alphabets, rather think of them as two different scripts - printing and cursive writing for example. Or maybe it's more like knowing numerals - do you want to know just 0-4, 5-9, or all of them between 0 and 9?

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by manutabora

Hey Scottbass,
So transposing up one step is done to get rid of the flats? I thought music was written that way because of the nature of the instruments. I mean, if you are writing for a trumpet in B flat and you write the music in the actual pitches that you want the people to hear, it's not going to work because the isntrument is tuned one step down so every time you write a C, the people are going to hear a B flat instead. In a case like this, you would have to write the trumpet part in the key of D so that people actually hear it in C.
Or maybe there's some other kind of transposition that I'm not aware of, I'd really like to know more about that. I'm an orchestra musician, I've never been in bands other than jazz and pep bands, so I'm curious to know how that works.

When you play one of the root notes of a "normal" B-flat trumpet with no valves depressed, that note is a B-flat according to a piano, tuning fork, electronic tuner, etc. However, the sheet music used in band arrangements shows that note as a C. Similarly, if you play one of the root notes of a "normal" B-flat trombone with the slide in the closed position, or if you play one of the root notes of a "normal" B-flat tuba with no valves depressed, that note is represented on sheet music as a B-flat - and it is truly a B-flat according to the piano, tuning fork, etc.

The vast majority of band music is composed in the true key of B-flat or one of it's circle-of-fifths relatives, F or E-flat, because the brass instruments sound best (are most "well-tempered") in the keys related to their natural resonant frequency - which is B-flat. However, for trumpet and most (not all) baritone players, the note that is really, truly a B-flat is arbitrarily called (and notated as) a "C". The reason this is done is to make it easier fo those who are trying to learn BOTH how to play the instrument AND how to read music. The key of C major has no sharps or flats.

This convoluted convention was begun LONG before even my great-grandfather was born (and I myself am really old), so there's no hope of changing it.

[manutabora]

Oh, ok. That's what I thought, I guess I kind of misinterpreted the other post, but that makes sense.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by scottbass

When you play one of the root notes of a "normal" B-flat trumpet with no valves depressed, that note is a B-flat according to a piano, tuning fork, electronic tuner, etc. However, the sheet music used in band arrangements shows that note as a C. Similarly, if you play one of the root notes of a "normal" B-flat trombone with the slide in the closed position, or if you play one of the root notes of a "normal" B-flat tuba with no valves depressed, that note is represented on sheet music as a B-flat - and it is truly a B-flat according to the piano, tuning fork, etc.

The vast majority of band music is composed in the true key of B-flat or one of it's circle-of-fifths relatives, F or E-flat, because the brass instruments sound best (are most "well-tempered") in the keys related to their natural resonant frequency - which is B-flat. However, for trumpet and most (not all) baritone players, the note that is really, truly a B-flat is arbitrarily called (and notated as) a "C". The reason this is done is to make it easier fo those who are trying to learn BOTH how to play the instrument AND how to read music. The key of C major has no sharps or flats.

This convoluted convention was begun LONG before even my great-grandfather was born (and I myself am really old), so there's no hope of changing it.

Trombones are not transposing instruments. They are concert pitched so if you want t 'bone to play C you write C.
"Normal Instrument pitches:
Flutes/piccolo - concert pitch (non-transposing)
Oboe - Concert
Clarinet - Bb
Alto/Bari Sax - Eb
Tenor/Soprano sax - Bb
Trumpet/Cornet - Bb
French Horn - F
Trombone - C
Baritone Horn - Bb
Tuba - Bb

There are always exceptions to this rule. A double french horn has a key to change to a different set of valves that are pitched Bb as well as F. There are C trumpets, there are Eb baritone horns, there are Eb french horns.

A vast majority of band music is composed in concert C, Bb, Eb and F because most bands are students and those are the easiest keys for them to read. For a Bb trumpet those keys are D, C, F and G. Brass instruments can play in any key effectively and they have fine tuning adjustment sliders (trumpet has one for the first and third valve) that are used constantly for correct intonation. For an Eb Alto sax they are A, G, C and D. Orchestral composers use keys like Db and Gb to get a darker tone because the string section doesn't have many open strings to vibrate sympathetically.

The transposing instrument system originated in the Renaissance period where different size flute (recorders) were being built for wider pitch pallets, but to get them to play in tune you had to learn a different fingering system for each size flute. To compensate for that and avoid cross fingerings the concert pitch of the flutes was changed and the music was transposed. This made things easier on the musicians in that they only had to learn one set of fingerings.