Not The Typical Ear Training Question

[DudeistMonk]

I understand what I need to do to get train my ears and I'm working on it (transcription, ear training materials, running my chords and scales) and making small amounts of progress, my question is about the application...

When jamming with someone (guitarist/keyboardist) when they just start out with some chords or melody and no established progression/key, I try to figure out what they are playing and then use theory to apply a bass line to it.

Ie:
step 1) Listen
step 2) Stare at the guitarist slack jawed trying to learn and memorize his progression
step 3) Find the chords on my bass and begin playing in rhythm using notes from the chords
step 4) Add complexity and try to smooth things out

A couple things can go wrong here, like that I'm not very good at figuring out with the other musician is playing, there is dead silence from me during this time, the other musician inevitably changes what they are playing.

It recently occurred to me (from reading another thread, and listening back to a winged jam I recorded) that maybe I could just listen to them, come up with something in my head and try to play that, completely ignoring figuring out what chords they are using ext. cutting out a step in the mental process and hopefully coming up with a more organic line.

Ie:
Step 1) Listen
Step 2) Humm a groove
Step 3) Find and play said groove

This seems to go against all the theory work I'm doing in my weekly lessons ext. So the question is how do guys do it, what is your thought process when entering a situation like this? Would you say method two is worth exploring, or should I stick with trying to figure out what the guitarist is doing?

[Chipsonfire]

If you are jamming, I would say just wing it. If you want to apply theory to it, record the session and pick it apart later to see what he was playing and what you did and try to figure out why it worked. Just my $.02.

[MonetBass]

Get to know the guitar and keyboard better. That way you can look at the player's hands and know what chords they're playing.

But then again, if the groove that you hear in your head works, then go for it. It could be an incredibly innovative line that would have otherwise not occurred to you.

[onlyclave]

The listen/hum/play method is ultimately what ear training is for. You first must be able to compose your bass line in your head and be able to hear and sing it. Only after then can you realize it on the bass.

It's not going against your theory work since theory is a descriptor for music that has already been played. You can use that past experience and pallet of sounds to guide your mind's ear, but music theory alone doesn't directly help you create.

To expand your own sonic pallet it takes a lot of listening. Find new music to experience so that you can grow your own vocabulary. Use those new experiences with music you already know to create new music. Ask yourself "What would a bossa nova fugue sound like?" If you can find one to analyze then use your music theory to see what was played and use those elements to create another version of one. If one doesn't exist then you have to use your ear training to figure out what it would sound like.

Keep watching the guitar player's hand if you want to keep hammering 8th-note roots.

[DudeistMonk]

Thanks for the input so far...

Here is an example of what I'm talking about BTW.

http://webstudiodelta.com/bass/mp3/2-ii_V-Jam.mp3

This is pretty old recording, we where auditioning a Rhythm Guitarist and he started playing and I just decided to wing a line, which as I explained I wouldn't normally do, cause I liked what he was playing and I didn't want him to stop/I find it embarrassing to ask for chords. The first minute or so (after everyone checks their volume) I have no clue what either guitarist is playing. Maybe I'm just delusional but it all sounds pretty good to me.

Eventually it falls apart and the lead Guitar yells "G min to C7" and from there I'm using chord and scale tones and just making lines based on theory (which I find works well for super simple progressions like this, especially since the Guitarist announced the chords).

Also we didn't go with the guy cause he couldn't figure out Gmin to C7 and kept throwing out dissonant chords everywhere...Then eventually the other guitar player got a paying gig and now I'm just back to bass drum jams.

...and any other comments feedback on my playing/what I could do different/what I should work on would also be appreciated.

[DudeistMonk]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

The listen/hum/play method is ultimately what ear training is for. You first must be able to compose your bass line in your head and be able to hear and sing it. Only after then can you realize it on the bass.

It's not going against your theory work since theory is a descriptor for music that has already been played. You can use that past experience and pallet of sounds to guide your mind's ear, but music theory alone doesn't directly help you create.

To expand your own sonic pallet it takes a lot of listening. Find new music to experience so that you can grow your own vocabulary. Use those new experiences with music you already know to create new music. Ask yourself "What would a bossa nova fugue sound like?" If you can find one to analyze then use your music theory to see what was played and use those elements to create another version of one. If one doesn't exist then you have to use your ear training to figure out what it would sound like.

Keep watching the guitar player's hand if you want to keep hammering 8th-note roots.

Thanks that was helpful.

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that the theory was useless, if I thought that I wouldn't have put so much work into it, it just suddenly seems like I've been using it wrong.

I do listen to a very broad range of music, and constantly (I work on a computer so I find myself spending way too much on CDs to listen too at work)...I need to transcribe and learn to recognize the patterns and theory behind all that music though...it's all in my head but I not yet in my hands.

8th note roots are what I've been trying to avoid since day one.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

Get to know the guitar and keyboard better. That way you can look at the player's hands and know what chords they're playing.

+1. Learning to play rhythm guitar and various chords will help you out a lot. I've kept an acoustic guitar around for years just for that purpose. Learning the guitar's fretboard will also help as well. Throw in some basic music theory and you be good to go.

Same for the keyboards.

No downside to extending your musical knowledge.

IME, learning some of what Guitards and Keytards know will help get you where you want to go.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

. You first must be able to compose your bass line in your head and be able to hear and sing it. Only after then can you realize it on the bass.

It's not going against your theory work since theory is a descriptor for music that has already been played. You can use that past experience and pallet of sounds to guide your mind's ear, but music theory alone doesn't directly help you create.

How true.

An exercise that really helps to begin to make that happen:
1. pick a simple song you can sing (Happy birthday to you)
2. sing it (text or just la-la-la)
3. sing it and play it simultaneously (corrections all by ear, no fingerboard watching)
4. sing it naming the intervals 1 -7 (Happy birthday would be 5 5 6 5 1 7 etc.)
5. go to another (random) starting position and repeat step 4.
6. on the next day play a new song - no memorizing
7. try doing this all over the fretboard.

Good luck.

[HogieWan]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

Step 1) Listen
Step 2) Hum a groove
Step 3) Listen
Step 4) Find and play said groove
Step 5) Listen
step 6) Stare at the guitarist while playing aforementioned grove trying to learn and memorize his progression
Step 7) Listen
step 8) Find the chords on my bass and begin playing in rhythm using notes from the chords
Step 9) Listen
step 10) Add complexity and try to smooth things out
Step 11) Listen

Fixed it for you

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Chris K

4. sing it naming the intervals 1 -7 (Happy birthday would be 5 5 6 5 1 7 etc.)

Not to pick nits, but for a tune as well known and as tonal as "Happy Birthday", I would think it makes more sense to refer to that last pitch as "3 of V" rather than "7" because it better describes how the note sounds in context (as well as how it functions).

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

Get to know the guitar and keyboard better. That way you can look at the player's hands and know what chords they're playing.

This is exactly the type of thing you want to avoid.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

Get to know the guitar and keyboard better. That way you can look at the player's hands and know what chords they're playing.

You missed the EYE TRAINING thread. Maybe it's somewhere nearby though.

Probably a surprise to some people, music is something you primarily use the ears for, whereas visual arts and entertainment is more focused toward the use of eyes as receptors.

[mambo4]

One big missing chunk I constantly see in ear training threads is the importance of learning to recognize chord progressions.

For me , winging it by ear is a piece of cake as soon as I grasp the harmonic movement of the song

so while ear training by interval recognition and scale recognition is useful, learnign to recognize your ii-V7-I's and you I-VI V's ect by sound is waaaaaay more useful, in my book. in fact, once I nail the chord progression, figuring out the bass line is usually obvious.

try this: listen to Stand by Me and then Every Breath You Take and see if you can hear the similarity of harmonic movement. (they may not be exact but they are close)

It is very useful to find the chords of uber famous tunes and analyze the harmony in terms of I-VI-V ect. Then you can say "that sounds like Stand by Me, so it's probably a I-vi-VI-V progression."

Not the end all, be all of ear training for sure, but very practical.

[greenboy]

Ear training and study of music [harmonic] theory go hand in hand.

[HogieWan]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Probably a surprise to some people, music is something you primarily use the ears for, whereas visual arts and entertainment is more focused toward the use of eyes as receptors.

But if you watch the keyboard player for one progression and he only hits one black key, you can pretty quickly know the key yhe groove is in.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by HogieWan

But if you watch the keyboard player for one progression and he only hits one black key, you can pretty quickly know the key yhe groove is in.

And if you can't see the keyboard player's hands... you're screwed.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Not to pick nits, but for a tune as well known and as tonal as "Happy Birthday", I would think it makes more sense to refer to that last pitch as "3 of V" rather than "7" because it better describes how the note sounds in context (as well as how it functions).

I mean this as an exercise to recognize melodic intervals, not harmonic functions. In the exercise you are supposed to play the melody.

Exercise 2 of course would imply finding the harmonies to this song, in which case (on that single note 7 at the end of the first phrase) V would be a great idea.

Exercise 2 would go like this:
1. Play the melody to Happy Birthday
2. Decide which note is the root noot / key center
3. Find intervals 4 and 5
4. Compose a bass part choosing only from the notes 1,5,4 (order of appearence)
5. Start thinking of 1, 5, 4 in Roman numbers
6. Learn: I = tonica (ground note) V = dominant IV = subdominant. They are called harmonic functions.
7. Try out what happens if you change the notes you chose for other notes from the major scale - try to remember the changes you believe to sound good also.
8. Rembember that though you might change some notes, the harmonic functions stay roughly the same.


etc. etc.